Was PCI for Amiga a good choice?

[Iggy]

Really? Then tell me, what's the point of an Amiga with a graphics card, sound card and PPC cpu? Where's the Amiga in that?

Want a practical machine? Use a peece, it's the only thing that makes sense. Amigas need to retain their retro value, and they don't retain that if you start using them as glue logic.

So, yes, I like to use the old chipset in the old computer I like. When I need something more powerful, I'll use my peecee.

No I don't want a really practical machine, BUT I DO want better performance.
And PCs with UAE don't cut it.
I have PCs, yes they have their place, that is not the point.
YES I want PPC accelerators, video cards, etc.

WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU WANT.

Do what you will.
I keep an old A2000 to play around with.
AGA, while colorful, is not that great an upgrade.
I even looked into a PPC accelerator for the A2000, there is one configuration that can be made, but no.
I've got PPC hardware that greatly outperforms it.

So I'm happy.
And we will never agree.
So be it.

[bbond007]

I have a GREX 1200 for sale if anyone is interested...

http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?64283-G-REX-1200-with-Voodoo-3-Realtek-8029-and-Ess-Solo-1&highlight=GREX

I bought one of those new one year at the St. Louis show... I think from Compuquick.

Anyway, getting bussboard, the PPC software and all that working back then was interesting to say the least....

much prefer the clean 060 desktop A1200 I have now.

[Rob]

Really? Then tell me, what's the point of an Amiga with a graphics card, sound card and PPC cpu? Where's the Amiga in that?

I added all of those things to my A1200 over the years and it never felt any less an Amiga for it, if anything, it felt more of an Amiga for being able to add them into the systesm fairly seamlesslly.

[QuikSanz]

I added all of those things to my A1200 over the years and it never felt any less an Amiga for it, if anything, it felt more of an Amiga for being able to add them into the systesm fairly seamlesslly.

Lol, isn't that the point of an expansion bus? My pair of classics are loaded for bear!

[Fizza]

sometimes i get the impression that the policy is exactly that: purposedly not to let the userbase grow beyond what it is, only just drain all the cash it is able to offer. souns weird? yeah, it does. but on the plus side you can keep your secure place locked away from the outside world and keep dreaming what could be if it would be forever.

is it my duty to support that? i woulnt like to think so. i prefer to support, what gains my interest, not what others may demand of me for the sake of their interests. especially if this must involve bashing the genuine system, we all should be actually fans of.

That depends, a more retro-centric viewpoint could be more inclined to try to get the most from the hobby sized userbase that can support it, with not much view of expansion beyond retro-enthusiasm, which is fine and is working well for the C64 scene etc.

But I would say that those trying to expand beyond retro would have to be more interested in growing the userbase beyond retro enthusiasts by default, I think to suggest all the work (with seemingly little visible reward) has been and is being done just to fleece remaining prospective (as opposed to retro.. protro?) users does not hold up in a logical sense.

Call me Captain Obvious if need be, but retro vs. protro is also the likely source of the dichotomy within the Amiga community. Appealing to both views maybe the ticket or the curse, or maybe there just needs to be an acceptance that the twain shall never (or rarely) meet and each leave the other to their own devices?

[wawrzon]

But I would say that those trying to expand beyond retro would have to be more interested in growing the userbase beyond retro enthusiasts by default

beyond retro entusiasts? who would that be? regular mainstream users who want contemporary computing just dont come well along with windows, mac and linux? people who dont like multiprocessing, 3d acceleration, security, all that sort of things everybody takes for granted today, and who can resign on almost any of otherwise available software titles, just want their machine to be ppc?

all the work (with seemingly little visible reward)

now you are telling it yourself, right? little reward.

as opposed to retro..

there is nothing opposed to retro to be found here. no neologisms and new speech is going to help explain that.

Call me Captain Obvious if need be, but retro vs. protro is also the likely source of the dichotomy within the Amiga community. Appealing to both views maybe the ticket or the curse, or maybe there just needs to be an acceptance that the twain shall never (or rarely) meet and each leave the other to their own devices?

apparently it isnt as obvious as it should be. there is no complementarity here. amiga nor any of the follow up alternatíves is not going to become mainstream let alone catch up. the gap is growing every week. it is illusionary.

[slaapliedje]

So this is the way I basically look at it;

While slapping all the extra PCI bus things into an Amiga doesn't really make it more Amiga or less Amiga, the fact remains that there is quite a decent amount of software that will take advantage of RTG cards, workbench itself runs a heck of a lot faster than it does in AGA, looks a lot nicer as well.

So I have the best of both worlds in my system, 060 with RTG when I need/want it.  Most everything plays extremely well in AGA (if they're 'native' games), and ports like the ones Novacoder have been doing work great either way.  I'll be honest, for the most part, the RTG video modes have been used by me mostly to log onto aminet or wherever to download utilities.  It's far easier and better to use Workbench at 1920x1080 with all the separate windows that it opens, than it is at 640x512, not to mention occasionally running into the fun times of running out of chip memory.

So while I'll readily play AGA/ECS/OCS games, I prefer the utilities to be in a bit higher resolution.

Granted I could have hunted for a Zorro based graphics card, but then are those any more 'Amiga'?

slaapliedje

[Fizza]

beyond retro entusiasts? who would that be? regular mainstream users who want contemporary computing just dont come well along with windows, mac and linux? people who dont like multiprocessing, 3d acceleration, security, all that sort of things everybody takes for granted today, and who can resign on almost any of otherwise available software titles, just want their machine to be ppc?

People who want to live in houses would also not like to live in one that is only just been framed, so do you look at the frame only and say it's not worth bothering trying to finish the house because of that?

now you are telling it yourself, right? little reward.

In response to your suggestion that those who might want to see progression are being fleeced purposely, or words to that effect.

there is nothing opposed to retro to be found here. no neologisms and new speech is going to help explain that.

Whether that is the case at the moment or not is irrelevant and does not prove one way or another that progression isn't possible or viable. However, I applaud your use of the word neologism.

apparently it isnt as obvious as it should be. there is no complementarity here. amiga nor any of the follow up alternatíves is not going to become mainstream let alone catch up. the gap is growing every week. it is illusionary.

I never really said mainstream, that is a very distant dream. However, a viable alternative system can still be relatively popular, it wasn't that long ago that Apple was facing annihilation and MacOS, while relevant in a supportive industry, was still very marginal. But my point is that I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong, it is your opinion and you have every right to it, but others hold differing opinions based on a different and, some would say in their opinion, more valid perspective, one viewpoint may just be pessimistic and the other optimistic. Of course, it is easier to be proven 'right' with a pessimistic viewpoint in these situations, and that's the general problem with naysaying, or naysayers - people who would rather be happy to be 'right' about something failing than be 'wrong' when something succeeds, which I find even more sad when the naysayers stand to benefit from success.

[Nlandas]

I read that getting the specifications for PCI cost at least $1000 it may have cost more when there was only PCI.
At the same time there was AGP by intel, not sure if it cost anything back then to get the specs.

Is PCI fast enough to justify the extra cost?

At the time it was exactly the right choice. PCI was still readily available for many card types including video and cost less. AGP was video only.

Now as we go forward the question is wouldn't PCIe be good to implement for future boards. The question is, does anyone have the money to do it and is there enough market left?

-Nyle

[wawrzon]

People who want to live in houses would also not like to live in one that is only just been framed, so do you look at the frame only and say it's not worth bothering trying to finish the house because of that?.

in germany there is a term for projects that have been framed for way too long. its "bauruine" or "investitionsruine". both of these contain the word "ruin":
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investitionsruine#/media/File:Soda_Merklinde.jpg
thats exactly the state, we are talking about here.

In response to your suggestion that those who might want to see progression are being fleeced purposely, or words to that effect.

well then, to little reward to the project and to the fans, what reward the investors behind investitions being ruined from the start have seen is another matter, and not of popular knowledge usually.

Whether that is the case at the moment or not is irrelevant and does not prove one way or another that progression isn't possible or viable.

its very much of relevance, because there are people betting on this "progress" or whatever strange words you are trying to call it. time has proven for thousand times by now, that this "progression" is but a myth, in contrary to what whatever amiga ever was and remains is a solid fact.

I never really said mainstream, that is a very distant dream.

its not distant. it doesnt exist.

However, a viable alternative system can still be relatively popular, it wasn't that long ago that Apple was facing annihilation and MacOS, while relevant in a supportive industry, was still very marginal.

another nonsensical apple comparison, as usual. commodore may have been compared to apple, whatever result might be, hyperion can not. period.

But my point is that I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong, it is your opinion and you have every right to it, but others hold differing opinions based on a different and, some would say in their opinion, more valid perspective, one viewpoint may just be pessimistic and the other optimistic.

another attempt at making everything relative. if everything is only a matter of opinion, none will ever be right, and no discussion may take place. conseqently, you may simply stay away from this topic, since your posts do not mean anything in the end.

Of course, it is easier to be proven 'right' with a pessimistic viewpoint in these situations, and that's the general problem with naysaying, or naysayers - people who would rather be happy to be 'right' about something failing than be 'wrong' when something succeeds, which I find even more sad when the naysayers stand to benefit from success.

your comment may apply to people who are "negative" in general, towards everything. unfortunatelly, im not one of them. im quite positive towards amiga and a number of amiga-projects, even not considering whether they fulfill my expectations or not, rather based on attitude and track of record of people behind them. this has nothing with speculating on "being right" one day, even though (thats scary!) i have been proven right almost in any case i remember to have commented on these forums so far.

[agami]

sometimes i get the impression that the policy is exactly that: purposedly not to let the userbase grow beyond what it is, only just drain all the cash it is able to offer. souns weird? yeah, it does. but on the plus side you can keep your secure place locked away from the outside world and keep dreaming what could be if it would be forever.

is it my duty to support that? i woulnt like to think so. i prefer to support, what gains my interest, not what others may demand of me for the sake of their interests. especially if this must involve bashing the genuine system, we all should be actually fans of.

Well said.

[Dandy]

I'd love more native Zorro 3 cards with an improved Buster that let the Z3 bus run at full speed.

Hmmm - when I built my A4kPPC I bought a Micronik BigTower with Zorro III busboard. When I bought the A4k mobo I ensured it had Buster 11.

With the Cyberstorm PPC I got the opportunity to use SCSI exclusively (UW & SCSI II), which made the system much more responsive due to generating virtually no CPU load during disk operations (HD, CD, DVD)/scanning/tape streaming.

Initially I had a CybervisionPPC with 8 mB graphics mem connected. But often I had to deal with graphics that required more graphics mem and so I looked for alternatives.

Amiga Zorro graphic boards were much too expensive for my taste (as well as soundcards and NICs) and so I decided to go the MediatorPCI route.

A wise decision!

I got a used Voodoo4 PCI graphics card for just 10 DM (roughly 5 €), a used Terratec 512i digital soundcard with optical output, as well as a new 10/100 mBit NIC, which were in the same price range.

Initially I also had an Elbox SpiderII USB 2.0 PCI fitted, but exchanged that later for a Deneb in a Zorro III slot for speed reasons.
 
Going the PCI route was the best thing that could happen to my A4k...

[Dandy]

I don't like it one bit, because it turns awesome Amigas into nothing but glue logic. I don't have an Amiga for that.

With all due respect, but this is your own fault - errrm - decision...  

[Dandy]

Really? Then tell me, what's the point of an Amiga with a graphics card, sound card and PPC cpu?

A much more eye-friendly picture on the monitor (I've ruined my eyes enough with the old, flickering OCS/AGA graphic modes on CBM monitors), much better sound and a bit more power over the pure 060 cards (talking about the CSPPC here)...

Where's the Amiga in that?

Get one and try it out yourself - I'm sure you'll reconsider your POV (at least if you want to do serious productivity work many hours per day)...

Want a practical machine? Use a peece, it's the only thing that makes sense.

I have several of them for tasks that require more power. Nevertheless, Amigas are more user-friendly for my taste...

Amigas need to retain their retro value, and they don't retain that if you start using them as glue logic.

No.
My Amigas need to work for me in a way I like.

I'm also involved in preserving steam locomotives.
There we also have some that say it would be better just to rework the old machines optically than to destroy their value by fitting non-original spare parts in order to bring them back into working condition.
I will never understand such POVs - non-working units are completely worthless from my POV...

So, yes, I like to use the old chipset in the old computer I like.

O.K. - if you want to spoil your eyes...
That's up to you.

When I need something more powerful, I'll use my peecee.

Here I can agree with you, as long as there is no Amiga system that offers the power I need.

[Iggy]

@Dandy

Good stuff! And in the real hacking spirit.
As for leaving ANYTHING stock, that is not for me either.
It always needs to be taken further.