Was PCI for Amiga a good choice?

[yssing]

I didn't know that the criteria for being 'stuck in the past' is the ability to be installed on 68k hardware.

That was not what I wrote, and I expect that you know that.

But let me comment on it anyway, the classic 68k is stuck in the past, my critery for saying that, is that it was developed last century, the 68k cpu has not been developed in, what close to 20 years, the same for the rest of the classic amiga. I know there are FPGA implementations and what not, of the classic, but they still have to conform to the very dated chipset, so does software running on 68k.

Compared to other actively developed commercial operating systems, AmigaOS 4.x is soooo stuck in the past.

That is your oppinium, I would not list that as a criteria, besides albeit slow progress, it is still developed.

but why don't you give me examples why AOS 4.x is stuck in the past, besides backwards compatability, which all OS's has, as you pointed out.

[wawrzon]

some people represent point of view that the genuine further development of amiga (itself being stuck in the past) is hacking together some embedded reference boards along with some off shelf pci hardware, patching the system sources one could got hold of to more-less run on it and then port some aged open source linux sdl software in order to be executed on such systems.

well, jest aside what up to date features does os4 offer in comparison to alternatives or the original today? 3d support, means gallium? fail. multicore support? fail. memory protection plus ressources tracking? fail. variety of up to date hardware drivers? fail. genuine software? fail. main titles ported from other systems? fail...

even last year greatly annonced feature of hacking beyond 2gb ram limit doesnt seem to get a single application.

well, if thats not, what one could call being stuck somwhere, then i dont know..

[HammerD]

Yah!  That's the one, I thought it was for the 3000, as well.  Wish more of those had made it into the wild; that was a pretty slick solution.  One of those and a rebuilt/overclocked PPC card and you'd have a wicked fast Amiga...

I have a GREX 1200 for sale if anyone is interested...

http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?64283-G-REX-1200-with-Voodoo-3-Realtek-8029-and-Ess-Solo-1&highlight=GREX

[yssing]

3D support in the form of Warp3D, multicore, is well under way. There are plenty of hardware drivers, sure you can't pick any type of expansion, install it and expect it to run.
Amount of software has nothing to do with the operating system. There is a lot of software titles on os4depot, and yes a lot of them are ports, and so?
No one is stopping you developing your own software or drivers.

[wawrzon]

3D support in the form of Warp3D, multicore, is well under way.

warp3d ia an old crippled and outdated system that originates and represents the functionality of 68k era, which is, how you yourself worded that "stuck in the past". it took ages to have it ported and available for the cards, the systems you consider "modern" come equipped with. and this outdated form of 3d support is a result, that they apparently couldnt get gallium done.

There are plenty of hardware drivers, sure you can't pick any type of expansion, install it and expect it to run.

will be good to be notified, as soon as the hardware you are being delivered as an ng "amiga" becomes fully supported.

Amount of software has nothing to do with the operating system.

okay, i know operating system is fun as it is, even without software. for the time being, except of said sdl ports you must be using the old "stuck in the past" amiga software, originating mostly from the last millenium. to the point that the hardware vendors are buying up the sources of the said "stuck in the past" software in order to market it again, possibly with minor improvements.

No one is stopping you developing your own software or drivers.

so a customer is supposed to develop drivers fot the system he would have to buy all by himself? thats how you define "modern" approach? if so, i wonder if documentation to do this is really freely available, without ndas and such, because it really might stop people.

[matthey]

Yes, but isn't that where increased complexity comes from?

Some processors have better performance per clock, have less complexity and/or use less logic because of their design. CISC processors have a higher complexity and logic cost for a base CPU implementation but then they generally have good performance per clock and take less resources to improve this. RISC processors are cheaper to implement but require lots of resources to make powerful per clock and avoid bottlenecks (big caches, strong OoO, adding some CISC like features, etc.). RISC was originally designed to outperform CISC by out clocking it and by moving complexity from the CPU to the compiler but it lost both of these battles. Most modern powerful RISC processors have added some CISC features and are now RISC/CISC hybrids. Most modern CISC processors have adopted some RISC features and are now CISC/RISC hybrids.

You misunderstand. Amiga hardware is cool because it has a high retro coolness factor. AmigaOS isn't bad, it's just not as good and fast as it could be for 68k.

AmigaOS has a lot of good features and ideas which were not fully developed or implemented. There have been add-ons to the OS which should have been more carefully integrated. The AmigaOS is still fast and responsive by design even if compiler optimization has always been lacking. Most 68k processors are forgiving of poorly optimized code. I believe the 68k AmigaOS could be 20%-40% smaller with better optimization but this would probably only give 10%-20% better performance. Good algorithms are more important to performance.

@wawa
Don't make the AmigaOS 4 guys cry with your flawless logic. Modern in the Amiga world implies at least 10 year old technology. They knew that before they spent a lot of money for "modern" PPC Amiga hardware when a PC with the same performance would have cost a fraction of the price and provided modern OS features. Then again, some of them still hope to convince us 68k Amiga users to take the expensive leap of faith to a more modern out dated Amiga .

[agami]

...

but why don't you give me examples why AOS 4.x is stuck in the past, besides backwards compatability, which all OS's has, as you pointed out.

https://web.njit.edu/~mili/pdf/oss.pdf

[wawrzon]

@wawa
Don't make the AmigaOS 4 guys cry with your flawless logic.
...

 Then again, some of them still hope to convince us 68k Amiga users to take the expensive leap of faith to a more modern out dated Amiga .

it would be excusable if it was simply naivety on their part. but like its customary with snowball marketing, people are on a mission to convince others to mistakes they have done, not to admit these for themselves.

[Fizza]

people are on a mission to convince others to mistakes they have done, not to admit these for themselves.

A bit of a harsh perspective that, even if not entirely invalid, another valid perspective would be simply that some people want the Amiga to progress and again become a viable alternative system (I daresay most here, including yourself, wouldn't mind seeing it happen), so it's a case of making the best of it, supporting those who are trying to make it happen in the hope of gaining traction to bring costs down and build a real userbase.

The hardware/software approach of the Amiga is what complicates it though, AmigaOS on G4/G5 Mac hardware would have been great three to five years ago and with Apple's move to Intel making a lot of great source hardware available for very reasonable prices, it may have even been possible to convince some ex-Amiga Mac converts to not sell their system after upgrading and instead load Amiga OS 4 onto it, which very well could have gone a long way to achieving some real momentum via OS4 sales, which could have been ploughed back into development of drivers/software to fuel a cycle that may have peaked enough to be able to engineer a proper hardware project at a much more attractive price range, although what hardware is beyond a top of the range G5 Mac Pro system, I don't know - unless you start getting back into serious custom chips?

[QuikSanz]

warp3d ia an old crippled and outdated system that originates and represents the functionality of 68k era, which is, how you yourself worded that "stuck in the past". it took ages to have it ported and available for the cards, the systems you consider "modern" come equipped with. and this outdated form of 3d support is a result, that they apparently couldnt get gallium done.


will be good to be notified, as soon as the hardware you are being delivered as an ng "amiga" becomes fully supported.


okay, i know operating system is fun as it is, even without software. for the time being, except of said sdl ports you must be using the old "stuck in the past" amiga software, originating mostly from the last millenium. to the point that the hardware vendors are buying up the sources of the said "stuck in the past" software in order to market it again, possibly with minor improvements.


so a customer is supposed to develop drivers fot the system he would have to buy all by himself? thats how you define "modern" approach? if so, i wonder if documentation to do this is really freely available, without ndas and such, because it really might stop people.

You have a champagne with a beer income. You expect Microsoft resources on a limited budget.

Your a naysayer and a person who could not do it with all the money in the world.
Get a grip..

[Cosmos Amiga]

warp3d ia an old crippled and outdated system that originates and represents the functionality of 68k era, which is, how you yourself worded that "stuck in the past". it took ages to have it ported and available for the cards, the systems you consider "modern" come equipped with. and this outdated form of 3d support is a result, that they apparently couldnt get gallium done.

Wawrzon : you are an old crippled and outdated human, I'm afraid...

I have a GREX 1200 for sale if anyone is interested...

http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?64283-G-REX-1200-with-Voodoo-3-Realtek-8029-and-Ess-Solo-1&highlight=GREX

Yes, GRex 1200 need BlizzardPPC rev2 : I'm still looking for any informations about this rev2 (which IC is updated, how Thomas Dellert updated the Blizzard without any soldering (by the miniPCI connector ?), rev2 jed files...)


Some said that there is a bug in the second batch of blizzppc rev0 which cause some weird crash. There are some bogus memory adresses too, never try to write them with the ppc or you will have some problems...

Any informations about this issue ? Wrong ceramic capacitors ? Wrong resistors ? CPLD problems ?


Ouch, I found this post :
"I tested MorphOS on some mobos with my blizzppc rev2.1 noscsi and the same setup. It worked on my old 2B motherboard (now fried) and on an 1D.4 and it doesn't work on my new 1D.1"


And this one :
"> then the "multitask-bug" a lot of persons have been experiencing, which also only happens on the BPPC

Not so. I can reporoduce the "multitask-bug" whenever I want on any system with a PPC regardless of it being CS or B. I'm not sure if it has to do with hardware or software, but I can guarantee that I can get Warp or PowerUP to crash taking the whole system with it in a matter of 30 seconds after a full and clean boot. Knowing how to avoid that is another situation all together. Keeping on topic though, it would be in thier best interest to release a product that's known to work on the csppc and continue testing for the bppc. Doing this will bring extra income that they did not previously have and can continue testing. Also, knowing that the base is being done so that they can have a full emulator on other platforms other than Amiga, it will help iron out any problems that they might not have seen or overlooked. Granted the extra cost for licensing of the roms, os disks, or bios images would not be all that cost effective at first however just a little funding would help a long way for the team at microcode. I'll say release it for the CSPPC and continue to test and develop for the BPPC"


And this :
"Well apparently it's not a bug in WarpOS afterall, but a error in the BlizzardPPC. MorphOS is said to have the same problems on Blizzards connected to anything but revision 1D mainboards. Maybe H&P and Ralph Schmidt could work together to track down this timing bug and make a workaround"






Any informations welcome !

[Thorham]

Some processors have better performance per clock, have less complexity and/or use less logic because of their design. CISC processors have a higher complexity and logic cost for a base CPU implementation but then they generally have good performance per clock and take less resources to improve this. RISC processors are cheaper to implement but require lots of resources to make powerful per clock and avoid bottlenecks (big caches, strong OoO, adding some CISC like features, etc.). RISC was originally designed to outperform CISC by out clocking it and by moving complexity from the CPU to the compiler but it lost both of these battles. Most modern powerful RISC processors have added some CISC features and are now RISC/CISC hybrids. Most modern CISC processors have adopted some RISC features and are now CISC/RISC hybrids.

Thanks for explaining.

AmigaOS has a lot of good features and ideas which were not fully developed or implemented.

Which ones?

The AmigaOS is still fast and responsive by design even if compiler optimization has always been lacking. Most 68k processors are forgiving of poorly optimized code. I believe the 68k AmigaOS could be 20%-40% smaller with better optimization but this would probably only give 10%-20% better performance.

I'm talking about a hypothetical new OS that's not compatible with AOS, so that you could do everything exactly right. You can certainly do better then.

Good algorithms are more important to performance.

Indeed. They're the most important. Proper use of CPU features comes in second.

[wawrzon]

A bit of a harsh perspective that, even if not entirely invalid, another valid perspective would be simply that some people want the Amiga to progress and again become a viable alternative system (I daresay most here, including yourself, wouldn't mind seeing it happen), so it's a case of making the best of it, supporting those who are trying to make it happen in the hope of gaining traction to bring costs down and build a real userbase.

sometimes i get the impression that the policy is exactly that: purposedly not to let the userbase grow beyond what it is, only just drain all the cash it is able to offer. souns weird? yeah, it does. but on the plus side you can keep your secure place locked away from the outside world and keep dreaming what could be if it would be forever.

is it my duty to support that? i woulnt like to think so. i prefer to support, what gains my interest, not what others may demand of me for the sake of their interests. especially if this must involve bashing the genuine system, we all should be actually fans of.

[wawrzon]

You have a champagne with a beer income. You expect Microsoft resources on a limited budget.

Your a naysayer and a person who could not do it with all the money in the world.
Get a grip..

i woulnt get on with something i cant achieve and try to call others on duty to support me, thats true.

[wawrzon]

Wawrzon : you are an old crippled and outdated human, I'm afraid...

well, might be to certain extent, most of us here arent exactly teenagers anymore;)

but i think you have missed the irony of my post. what concerns warp3d, you took offence on, i have tried to help few developers few years back to improve it for 68k in order to get more software working with it, rather than it remaining moreless a tech demo. kind of work you are following up now, i guess. so i realized, that it isnt exactly a masterpiece as it is. it could have been improved, but it wasnt in interest of whoever keeps the sources, sorry to say. the official position was exactly the same as propagated here: amiga is obsolete, outdated system, broken by design not worth support, not even in form of simple fixes provided ready by third party volunteers. instead you are demanded to buy, what is supposed to be"amiga" today.

[Iggy]

Really? Then tell me, what's the point of an Amiga with a graphics card, sound card and PPC cpu? Where's the Amiga in that?

Want a practical machine? Use a peece, it's the only thing that makes sense. Amigas need to retain their retro value, and they don't retain that if you start using them as glue logic.

So, yes, I like to use the old chipset in the old computer I like. When I need something more powerful, I'll use my peecee.

No I don't want a really practical machine, BUT I DO want better performance.
And PCs with UAE don't cut it.
I have PCs, yes they have their place, that is not the point.
YES I want PPC accelerators, video cards, etc.

WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU WANT.

Do what you will.
I keep an old A2000 to play around with.
AGA, while colorful, is not that great an upgrade.
I even looked into a PPC accelerator for the A2000, there is one configuration that can be made, but no.
I've got PPC hardware that greatly outperforms it.

So I'm happy.
And we will never agree.
So be it.