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Author Topic: The Gadget We Miss: The Video Toaster The gadget that revolutionized TV in the 1990s.  (Read 5648 times)

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Offline Sean Cunningham

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Re: The Gadget We Miss: The Video Toaster The gadget that revolutionized TV in the 19
« Reply #14 from previous page: August 11, 2014, 07:33:47 PM »
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Problem is, this 'killer app' was 1) too expnsive for casual users and 2) too niche to effect sales enough.

Photoshop was not an inexpensive app.  Neither were any of the page layout tools that kept Macs relevant, none of which directly brought any dollars into Apple either.  All of these very niche as well, yet they led to not only more people buying software they didn't actually need (this is the lifeblood of the industry overall) and machine purchases that allowed for the "one day" upward compatibility.  The killer app is the tide that raises all boats.  Because it's there, the hype surrounding it, all sorts of other smaller developers benefit.  The killer app creates another tier of supporting apps.  Commodore benefits from all that activity if they seize on it and support it and they didn't.

There was no existence in desktop publishing without spending thousands, in addition to whatever host computer you were using, and generally none of this additional expenditure went into the pocket of whomever made this computer.

Killer apps aren't about practical accessibility, or at least not exclusively so.  They're about selling an idea and creating the feeling that you "needed" it.  Since the dawn of the personal computer age most of this is irrational consumerism.  The Toater is hardly the most expensive item people have lined up around the block to buy for their computers that they don't, ultimately, need.
 

Offline Sean Cunningham

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Quote from: Heiroglyph;770765
A
That's not actually correct.  Watch the control monitor of Toaster system when doing a transition.  The animated effects are done by the Amiga, you just can't see them well because they are encoded with extra data that doesn't look correct on that monitor, somewhat similar to a DCTV image.  It's a combination of overlay, matting and UV coordinate information that the Toaster card knows how to interpret. The gate arrays on the Toaster card then use that data to mix the video signals and potentially the decoded Amiga graphics.

Okay, but that's very sparse data.  It's not heavy lifting at all.  It's very clever, allowing new effects to be added without the need of firmware updates to the board.  I would put money on this actually being less work than a full page of Kara Fonts characters scrolled from the bottom of the screen to the top.  Some polygons and a few "magic bits" is hardly "Only Amiga Makes It Possible" material.

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The Amiga Toaster had chips that processed video, but the mix was driven by the Amiga.  The video didn't need to get to the host computer unless you grabbed a still, which is a very slow process on a Toaster.

You're using "mix" here as if it was actual work or some kind of special engineering.  The video was processed on the board and sparse data sent from the Amiga instructed the board.  It's not magic.  If I'm watching Netflix streaming over a Chromecast device yet I'm controlling the Chromecast with an app on my phone I don't attribute any of the streaming or display or decompression, etc. to that mobile device in my hand.  

That's a very simple analogy, simpler in many ways compared to what is happening in the Amiga to Toaster connection but there is nothing stopping an extension of this very sort of one-way relationship of control such that full scrubbing and editing and higher level application control is established in such a paradigm and no matter what I would never attribute any of the real work to the handheld device that's ultimately controlling and "driving the mix".

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Going with smarter, more specialized hardware would also limit the lifespan and flexibility of the design.  Those cards only became outdated when HD video became the norm.

Mmmmm, in local TV circles and the like, perhaps, which stay with hardware long passed its sell-by date.  The Toaster became anachronistic with just a notch above the the more common industrial level (limping along on U-Matic) not long after the release of the VT4000.  Because composite video.  It would be the late 1990s but well before HD when the VT and its composite video became a real problem at the prosumer level.  Because IEEE 1394, otherwise known as Firewire.  

As soon as video acquisition and recording went digital the Toaster was pretty much public access television material.  But by 1993 even, component video devices were making their way into prosumer hands even, via devices like the Personal Animation Recorder and later Perception Video Recorder.  These rendered the framebuffer and video output on the Toaster a null and void issue for pretty much any application not involving the switching or processing of live video.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 08:18:16 PM by Sean Cunningham »
 

Offline matthey

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Quote from: Sean Cunningham;770767
Okay, but that's very sparse data.  It's not heavy lifting at all.  It's very clever, allowing new effects to be added without the need of firmware updates to the board.  I would put money on this actually being less work than a full page of Kara Fonts characters scrolled from the bottom of the screen to the top.  Some polygons and a few "magic bits" is hardly "Only Amiga Makes It Possible" material.


I bet the efficient near real time multitasking of the AmigaOS had something to do with the "Only Amiga Makes It Possible". Wasn't the video output at normal speed in real time? Even fast Windows computers today will just lag for several seconds (or more) sometimes. This would kill anything real time. Even low end Amigas are more responsive than Windows PCs that are 1000 times faster. It's really sad that M$ can make an OS slower faster than new hardware makes it faster but then it allows them to sell more copies of their OS.

It's too bad C= didn't take advantage of the Toaster sales to bring down the cost of high end 68k processors with huge memory capacity and more expensive tower cases with more expandability. One question for Heiroglyph though. Why didn't LightWave ever get recompiled for the 68040 and 68060 (specifically the FPU)? This would have doubled the speed over using OxyPatcher. For being "Amiga lovers", they seemed happy enough to let LightWave processing move to the PC from a very early time.
 

Offline mbrantley

Heiroglyph,

As a NewTek fan and user of a Toaster/Flyer setup (just something to play with these days) and SpeedEdit (more people should know about this NLE!), I just wanted to chime in and say I am enjoying your posts. Keep the stories and insights coming.
 

Offline persia

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Tim Berners-Lee put up the first website on 06 August 1991.  The World Wide Web is what drove popular video editing's popularity through the roof.  Unfortunately it was too late for Amiga and too late for analogue video editors.
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What we\'re witnessing is the sad, lonely crowing of that last, doomed cock.
 

Offline Heiroglyph

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Quote from: matthey;770779
I bet the efficient near real time multitasking of the AmigaOS had something to do with the "Only Amiga Makes It Possible". Wasn't the video output at normal speed in real time?


I wish I could say yes, but that was something that really upset Commodore.  We would often bypass the OS or prevent multitasking in order to get reliable throughput even on slower CPUs.

It was a win for users of 030's for example, but yeah, we weren't exactly system friendly.

We did love the way the OS worked though and when we moved on we modeled a lot of our internal code similarly.

Most people don't realize it, but the Flyer card is a self contained 68k computer that talks to the Amiga through the ZorroII bus. It runs its own Exec clone, much of which was also used in development of the small box I mentioned earlier. (yes, that little box has two independent 68k CPUs)  You can find a version of our Exec and references to the stand alone box software in the Flyer part of the OpenVT source distribution.

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One question for Heiroglyph though. Why didn't LightWave ever get recompiled for the 68040 and 68060 (specifically the FPU)? This would have doubled the speed over using OxyPatcher. For being "Amiga lovers", they seemed happy enough to let LightWave processing move to the PC from a very early time.


I honestly don't know.  The 3D and video teams are very separate and I'm on the video side.
 

Offline matthey

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Quote from: Heiroglyph;770788
I wish I could say yes, but that was something that really upset Commodore.  We would often bypass the OS or prevent multitasking in order to get reliable throughput even on slower CPUs.

It was a win for users of 030's for example, but yeah, we weren't exactly system friendly.

We did love the way the OS worked though and when we moved on we modeled a lot of our internal code similarly.

Most people don't realize it, but the Flyer card is a self contained 68k computer that talks to the Amiga through the ZorroII bus. It runs its own Exec clone, much of which was also used in development of the small box I mentioned earlier. (yes, that little box has two independent 68k CPUs)  You can find a version of our Exec and references to the stand alone box software in the Flyer part of the OpenVT source distribution.


It's pretty amazing what the Amiga and NewTek could do with a 68030. Turning off multitasking during high CPU loads is understandable.

Quote from: Heiroglyph;770788

I honestly don't know.  The 3D and video teams are very separate and I'm on the video side.


I disassembled LightWave 5.20a and I'm not sure they knew either. The optimization level is poor even for a 6888x. It's awful for a 68040 and 68060. I see instructions like this:

   fdiv.w #2,fpn   ; 6 bytes

which can be replaced exactly by:

   fmul.s #0.5,fpn   ; 8 bytes

The 6888x drops from ~130 cycles to ~90 cycles. The 68060 drops from 40 cycles to 4 cycles (the 68040 FPU is similar to the 68060). The code is littered with other F.w #imm,FPn instructions also which are slower to unnecessarily convert from int->fp. This does save a little code at the cost of speed but SAS/C also could not compress the double precision to single precision fp which would likely save more space overall. SAS/C is basically doing no scheduling of instructions to take advantage of the parallel operations of the integer and FPU units on all 68k FPUs either. Maybe the compilers weren't as good back then but there were still ways to do deal with these problems. My disassembly is clean enough I could spend a week optimizing and then reassemble with vasm's optimizer (vbcc's assembler) and probably double the speed on a 68040/68060 compared to OxyPatcher. More would be possible with an actual vbcc compile and my new fp math support. It would be interesting to see how much faster it would be with no traps at all. LightWave probably could have been 2-4 times faster on the 68040/68060 back then if NewTek just would have hired me. Ok, I wasn't that good fresh out of high school back then but it's too bad we can't compile the LightWave 5.20a sources with vbcc to get an idea of what the 68040 and 68060 were capable of back then (vbcc still doesn't have an instructions scheduler for the 68060 to really maximize performance).
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

I <3 all the history in this thread.  Wish we could make it a sticky.  :D
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos