Classic AmigaOS On Modern Hardware - A Critical Analysis

[OlafS3]

Thanks for the links Olaf I'll take a look at it after work ( They don't care as long as I don't go on facebook. )

I have not found another link. It is showing SMP working in ARIX (the commercial version of AROS) with two cores. Additional AROS using Linux kernel for driver support. There is also a 64bit version of AROS supporting (if I remember right) right now 128 GB RAM. Only MP is not possible at the moment but also promised for the future. There are versions for X86/X64/ARM/PPC and 68k. ARIX is in test right now so if you are interested you could certainly take part (after signing NDA).

Aeros is running using a Linux kernel (Linux hosted) with Linux Apps and WINE added. And then there is AMINUX (my distribution) running in FS-UAE started on a stick (with Linux) but not updated yet. Perhaps a more interesting playground for you.

[TeamBlackFox]

Eh if its running under the Linux kernel I'm not interested. I'm not interested in supporting the Linux kernel while open alternatives exist. Thanks anyways.

From the DragonFly BSD Web Site:
"DragonFly belongs to the same class of operating systems as other BSD-derived systems and Linux."

You're taking it out of context. Its not saying Linux is UNIX or BSD is Linux. They're in the same class because the Linux kernel is a workalike. BSD is descended from Berkeley UNIX which is in turn descended from Research UNIX, the original UNIX.

                          no - you don't. Most people put the ridiculous platform wars behind  them. Most software I am interested in works well on BSD and flavours of  Linux so what's the problem?

It's really stupid to not get along with someone because they use a  different operating system from you.. You realise that right ?       

No, actually its Linux users who criticize the conservative nature of the BSD projects, criticize us for not adopting the GNU philosophy, which is a load of rubbish anyways, and say we're a bunch of masturbating monkeys ( Linus Torvalds himself called us that ). I've tried getting along with that class of Linux user, but I don't - mostly I hang around with BSD/Solaris/IRIX guys with a few GNU/Linux users who aren't a bunch of ignorant rude people.

[OlafS3]

Eh if its running under the Linux kernel I'm not interested. I'm not interested in supporting the Linux kernel while open alternatives exist. Thanks anyways.



You're taking it out of context. Its not saying Linux is UNIX or BSD is Linux. They're in the same class because the Linux kernel is a workalike. BSD is descended from Berkeley UNIX which is in turn descended from Research UNIX, the original UNIX.



No, actually its Linux users who criticize the conservative nature of the BSD projects, criticize us for not adopting the GNU philosophy, which is a load of rubbish anyways, and say we're a bunch of masturbating monkeys ( Linus Torvalds himself called us that ). I've tried getting along with that class of Linux user, but I don't - mostly I hang around with BSD/Solaris/IRIX guys with a few GNU/Linux users who aren't a bunch of ignorant rude people.

that sounds worse than in the amiga community...

[Boot_WB]

that sounds worse than in the amiga community...

Indeed. :laughing:

[wawrzon]

What do you recommend I upgrade it to then? You think a less costly accelerator is more cost effective?

Also honestly I'm not too keen on the fact MorphOS barely utilizes the hardware, is 32-bit only and has no SMP support. While none of the other Amiga NG OSes seem to support this I'm honestly thinking my money for computing is better spent elsewhere than on an NG Amiga solution.

it was just an advise, bwb has mentioned csmk3, this might be sensible choice, in fact sticking ppc into an amiga is not any better than any of ng alternatives.

[Duce]

Honestly better off looking for a '060 accel vs a PPC one.  Not much uses the extra grunt out of the PPC side.

Of course, having the PPC gives you the option of running OS4 on a machine, but that being said in the experiences I had with OS4 Classic on my old A1200 I wasn't impressed with it.  OS4 is just far better on the NG platforms, even my lowly 440ep runs OS4 just stunning where as my old PPC A1200 never ran it acceptably in my own books.

[amigadave]

What do you recommend I upgrade it to then? You think a less costly accelerator is more cost effective?

Also honestly I'm not too keen on the fact MorphOS barely utilizes the hardware, is 32-bit only and has no SMP support. While none of the other Amiga NG OSes seem to support this I'm honestly thinking my money for computing is better spent elsewhere than on an NG Amiga solution.

Honestly, my favorite accelerator for the A3000D is the Warp Engine 68040 @ 40MHz.  It is not the fastest accelerator you can get, but it is rock solid, has an excellent SCSI controller and fits well into the A3000D with small modifications to provide better airflow through the hard drive and floppy drive shelf.

I can't recommend 68060 accelerators that I have no experience with in the A3000D, but other members may give you some good recommendations.  The 68060 is supposed to run cooler and may be a better choice in the A3000D's small case (small for an Amiga with Zorro slots).

I think your money would be better spent to get an accelerator without the PPC and use the saved money to buy a good RTG video card, like the PicassoIV, or Cybervision64.  The A3000D is a very popular Amiga model, and I hope that you have hours of fun playing around with it.  I suggest that you NOT try to expand it into something it can't do well.  Stick with AmigaOS2.1 through AmigaOS3.9 and software for the OCS & ECS chipsets and you should enjoy it for what it is, and what it was designed to be.

The only reason I mentioned MorphOS, was because you intended to buy a PPC accelerator for your A3000D, and MorphOS will run almost all of the PPC Amiga software much better than any PPC accelerator could ever do it.  Unless you are really interested in NG Amiga inspired systems and software, don't bother buying any hardware to run it.  The NG systems are certainly not for everyone, as they are best suited to only the hard core users who are dedicated to supporting the future of NG systems.  The Amiga NG platforms are not ready for the general computing public, and might never be ready for them.  AROS & MorphOS have one advantage that they can both be "test driven" for free, if you happen to have any of the supported hardware to run them.  From your signature, I see that you have a PPC G5 that might be supported some time in the future by MorphOS, and possibly AROS PPC as well, though I don't know if anyone is working on AROS PPC any more.  Edit:  I don't understand your comment about MorphOS barely utilizing the hardware, unless you are only referring to the Dual CPU or Dual Core & Dual CPU models, like your Quad Core G5 PowerMac, which is not yet supported (and might never be supported).  My single core, 1.67GHz G4, 17" PowerBook is very well supported, specially now that MorphOS3.6 has been released and the internal AirPort Extreme is supported.  The thing that I like about MorphOS is that updates are all free, and they come at a fairly regular pace.  It is improving all the time, and shows its advantages by running some things better than MacOSX 10.5.8, on the same exact hardware.  That is impressive for a tiny development team, in my opinion, who have very little free time to work on MorphOS.  End Edit:

I hope you enjoy your Amiga A3000D.  Did you choose that model because a version of it at one time in the distant past came from Commodore with Unix installed on it?

[TeamBlackFox]

OS4 is just far better on the NG platforms, even my lowly 440ep runs OS4 just stunning where as my old PPC A1200 never ran it acceptably in my own books.

I'll probably go for an '040 or '060 then.

Honestly, my favorite accelerator for the A3000D is the Warp Engine  68040 @ 40MHz.  It is not the fastest accelerator you can get, but it is  rock solid, has an excellent SCSI controller and fits well into the  A3000D with small modifications to provide better airflow through the  hard drive and floppy drive shelf.

I can't recommend 68060 accelerators that I have no experience with in  the A3000D, but other members may give you some good recommendations.   The 68060 is supposed to run cooler and may be a better choice in the  A3000D's small case (small for an Amiga with Zorro slots).

I think your money would be better spent to get an accelerator without  the PPC and use the saved money to buy a good RTG video card, like the  PicassoIV, or Cybervision64.  The A3000D is a very popular Amiga model,  and I hope that you have hours of fun playing around with it.  I suggest  that you NOT try to expand it into something it can't do well.  Stick  with AmigaOS2.1 through AmigaOS3.9 and software for the OCS & ECS  chipsets and you should enjoy it for what it is, and what it was  designed to be.

The only reason I mentioned MorphOS, was because you intended to buy a  PPC accelerator for your A3000D, and MorphOS will run almost all of the  PPC Amiga software much better than any PPC accelerator could ever do  it.  Unless you are really interested in NG Amiga inspired systems and  software, don't bother buying any hardware to run it.  The NG systems  are certainly not for everyone, as they are best suited to only the hard  core users who are dedicated to supporting the future of NG systems.   The Amiga NG platforms are not ready for the general computing public,  and might never be ready for them.  AROS & MorphOS have one  advantage that they can both be "test driven" for free, if you happen to  have any of the supported hardware to run them.  From your signature, I  see that you have a PPC G5 that might be supported some time in the  future by MorphOS, and possibly AROS PPC as well, though I don't know if  anyone is working on AROS PPC any more.

I hope you enjoy your Amiga A3000D.  Did you choose that model because a  version of it at one time in the distant past came from Commodore with  Unix installed on it?    

I had a 3000UX a few years back that was stolen by someone who a family member let into my house. I know who did it, and I'm 99.99% sure he took it to the scrapyard. He still won't admit he stole it. In hindsight though, I never used it, and Amiga UNIX is atrociously broken - so glad to have moved to BSD and IRIX. I'd much rather enjoy AmigaOS on it and use it for certain things ( If you read my signature I have a lot of systems and in my home network they all have a role they're specialized for )

As far as expandability for it goes, I have yet to decide other than a CPU upgrade. I was only looking at PowerPC cards because they seemed interesting but I didn't realize they're that slow ( I'm used to MIPS and SPARC which generally have slow clocks but high performance output )

I'm getting rid of the G5 soon due to its high power consumption, that I never want to touch OS X again, the atrocious prices for upgrades, the lack of overall expandability and the fact I can't find a good video card that won't burn out ( Had an X1900 in it till last night when it bit the dust, now a GeForce 6600 and the return of an unaccelerated X11 ). At this time I have no interest in AmigaOS beyond the legacy releases 3.9 and AROSM68k. AROS is a cool project, but I have no use for it, except I may, and this is a maybe, see if it can be hosted on DragonFly BSD ( Probably not as the Linux kernel is a piece of nonstandard junk and tends to break dependencies for other platforms ).

[Minuous]

@TeamBlackFox:

You seem to want AmigaOS to be just like UNIX. This would not be an improvement. UNIX is a late 60s/early 70s design filled with a lot of cruft and very user-unfriendly, I don't see what it would offer that AmigaOS does not. I've tried various UNIXes and they have been universally awful.

[TeamBlackFox]

@TeamBlackFox:

You seem to want AmigaOS to be just like UNIX. This would not be an improvement. UNIX is a late 60s/early 70s design filled with a lot of cruft and very user-unfriendly, I don't see what it would offer that AmigaOS does not. I've tried various UNIXes and they have been universally awful.

Not at all.

My favourite UNIX variant is SGI's IRIX which is very Amiga-like on the frontend - same market, different ends of the market though ( SGIs were 10k USD and up )

I just prefer the setup of UNIX and its philosophy ( Everything is a file, device nodes and commandline tools ) But I like AmigaOS for graphical stuff.

Ideally a UNIX variant like IRIX or DragonFly BSD with a Wayland compositor in the vein of Ambient, Zune or Workbench would be very ideal along with graphical tools for those who prefer GUIs ( I'm perfectly fine with console configurations but I know others arent )

Both these variants of UNIX differ from other UNIX in a few key areas:

IRIX is very optimized for graphical usage and therefore supports console and graphics usage equally. DragonFly BSD is still under heavy development and until it reaches the 5 or 6 release mark it will still not be ready for desktop use ( It works great for servers )

Both are designed to fix what others broke and did wrong.

Unfortunately IRIX has been frozen since 2006, but tha

[Thorham]

Everything is a file

Really? Sounds awful.

[TeamBlackFox]

Really? Sounds awful.

Not at all! For instance under UNIX we have a concept called mountpoints.

Lets say I have two drives:
Drive A is an SSD that is very fast, but very small
Drive B is a SCSI disk that is slower, but many times as big.

So I want to install all my OS files to Drive A. Well under Windows and AmigaOS, no issue.

Next I make Drive B into two slices- Slice 1 for personal data and Slice 2 for programs. I want them mounted transparently so that programs install automatically under Slice 2 and programs save my data to Slice 1.

Well under FreeBSD for example I'd do this:

I'd set up mountpoints so that da0 ( Drive A's device node/file ) is mounted at / and da1s1 ( Drive B, Slice 1's node/file ) mounts at /home, the userdata directory. Then since most all programs under the BSDs install in /usr/local/bin I'd mount da1s2 at that mountpoint.
 
As a result I have a transparent, unified filesystem that goes where I want it to go. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but as to my understanding AmigaOS doesn't have this concept. Now some may say just change the install target, but what if you've a pesky program that WANTS to be installed to a certain location?

Note: This is merely an example. I'd never mount separate disks like this with consumer drives unless I had a RAID array configured, since I mostly use industrial drives, its not an issue though.

In addition under UNIX interprocess and device communication is handled via pseudofilesystems:

All device nodes/files are under /dev

Process information is under /proc or sometimes /sys

Under some process supervision schemes there is /run which has data used by the process table supervisor.

The main benefits to the UNIX method are that most data is transferred in raw text rather than binary, facilitating tools like tcpdump ( A packet capture program ) to be human readable immediately, which would be impossible if part of the binary stream was corrupted. I'm not saying binary - binary communication is bad, but in a lot of places like logs and raw dumps human readability is very nice.

[Boot_WB]

As a result I have a transparent, unified filesystem that goes where I want it to go. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but as to my understanding AmigaOS doesn't have this concept.

On Amiga operating sytems we have the opposite - anything can be mounted at the top of the filesystem for easy access via assigns. Much more user-friendly imho than dealing with Unix paths. Rather than burrowing down into a path for everything, any directory can be addressed at the top level of the filesystem by creating an assign.

Assigns can also refer to multiple locations. The 'c' assign is an example of this (speaking form a MorphOS standpoint). The primary location is sys:c, however it is also a pseudonym for the location sys:morphos/c.

Assigns addressing multiple locations are prioritised in the order they are created (In this case sys:c is created first, then mossys:c added).
Consequently the command:
c:foobar
will first search the location
sys:c
for the file 'foobar'. If the file is not found, the location
sys:morphos/c
will then be searched

We also have softlinks which essentially operate the same as mountpoints, so wrt dos paths anything can be transparently addressed from anywhere.

[TeamBlackFox]

On Amiga operating sytems we have the opposite - anything can be mounted at the top of hte filesystem for easy access via assigns.

rather than burrowing down into a path for everything, any directory can be addressed at the top level of the filesystem by creating an assign.

We also have softlinks (speaking form a MorphOS standpoint) which essentially operate the same as mountpoints, so wrt dos paths anything can be trasparently addressed from anywhere.

Eh I don't consider it burrowing at all. Plus symbolic links are horribly inflexible. I prefer everything to be under a unified filesystem, but I guess I'm the one over here drinking green tea while everyone else is drinking black tea or something like that.

[Boot_WB]

Eh I don't consider it burrowing at all. Plus symbolic links are horribly inflexible. I prefer everything to be under a unified filesystem, but I guess I'm the one over here drinking green tea while everyone else is drinking black tea or something like that.

What I mean by that is that if I'm at the command line, I don't need to know where a directory is in the filesystem to be able to access it. As long as it has an assign, I can just type "foobar:" and I'm there.

[TeamBlackFox]

I see. I'm not into that setup because anything remotely resembling old DOS-type OSes with drive lettering or otherwise aggravates me. That is why on AmigaOS I only use the GUI and never the console for anything. On UNIX its the exact opposite - I use the console more often and the GUI is just a window manager/basic settings system overlayed, most of my control remains in the terminals.