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Offline biggun

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Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #89 from previous page: June 25, 2014, 08:46:49 PM »
Quote from: amigadave;767567
I was quite saddened when the Natami project became stalled, or stopped (I don't know if it is cancelled, or just on hold).


Thanks, this is nice to hear.
Let me answer it this way.

Our plan is to bring out the card for every AMIGA model.
We also plan to then create a stand alone version of the card.

As you might know the people doing this CPU card previous worked in the NATAMI team...
Does this answer your question?

Offline skolman

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Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2014, 11:34:37 AM »
Quote from: blanning;767228
... or from someone else I guess...

I think it would be really cool to create a bridgeboard that plugs into the raspberry PI, or maybe plug it into the CPU slot or 500 expansion slot.

The PI has ethernet, usb, an SD card slot, memory, HDMI and composite video output, audio, and a lot of memory...  It would be great to give the amiga access to all that.

Maybe the video could even be used to emulate an amiga RTG board.

It could plug into the amiga board through the gpio port and pass it through so other things can be plugged in.

You could probably even hang a low profile PCI slot off the board.

Maybe even emulate a powerpc chip.

wishful thinking...

brian


Low cost and compatibility with Classic PPC 603e PUP/WOS software.

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC5200B
http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/user_guide/MPC5200UM.pdf

http://www.amigawiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/PowerVixxen_LT

This video shows the speed emulation CPU 68060 on MorphOS (603e 240MHz)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuzY7pXTQ10
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Offline ElPolloDiabl

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Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2014, 12:08:21 PM »
To me the next Amiga would have become more and more like a pc. Natami never settled on a goal.
I would like it if FPGA 68k could emulate all Amiga models including CD32. If you want modern, it's better to start legacy free.
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Offline wawrzon

Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2014, 01:07:33 PM »
Quote from: skolman;767592
Low cost and compatibility with Classic PPC 603e PUP/WOS software.


which means compatibility with almost nothing as long as amiga is concerned. the subject of these ppc chips, even if it was practicable, was beaten as a dead horse for a decade and some, why must that be brought up in every conversation again and again. this option is expired, lets live with it.
 

Offline freqmax

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Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2014, 01:57:12 PM »
The point of the Amiga was that you could do something that wasn't possible at all previously for that price.

To then go for a more expensive route that does less than the current options seems to be wrong and is also part of the explanation for the irrelevance in the market place. Competing for raw performance is hard against a 4 GHz CPU with high ops/Hz rating. So something that does new things is likely make use of existing technology in a clever way.
 

Offline skolman

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Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2014, 02:09:18 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;767595
which means compatibility with almost nothing


All which requires a lot of computing power.
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Offline wawrzon

Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #95 on: June 26, 2014, 02:22:18 PM »
Quote from: skolman;767600
All which requires a lot of computing power.


what would that be? the few datatypes that have support for warpos? the few applications that have been compiled for it or powerup? i have an accelerator with a ppc cpu companion, that has been idle since few years and i cant really think of what i have been missing all this time.
 

Offline AJCopland

Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #96 on: June 26, 2014, 03:47:28 PM »
I never understand comments that are against things like this.

I do understand that *you* might not want it, or that *you* might not favour a particular approach.

So don't comment, because there's the people making it who *do* want to build it, and there's clearly a lot of people who *do* want to buy it.

Majsta has already proven the idea, and made an implementation that you can buy today (http://kipper2k.com/amigaforsale/). That's more than a lot of people have done. Even the source code for the FPGA is open source and online (http://www.majsta.com/) for those willing to hack on it.

The only thing that I want these guys to do is finish the board & core, ship it. Nothing else.
Just an accelerator, everything else from then on is just icing on the cake.

If there was one thing I'd love to see from this it's that it would go open source, so many of these projects just disappear down the toilet and _everything_ is lost forever. However that's only something I would personally like, it certainly won't stop me buying one.

Andy
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Offline biggun

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Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #97 on: June 26, 2014, 05:07:38 PM »
Everyone can take what he/she wants.

If you want an 68K fine.
If you want a PC, fine too.



My view on ARm is this:

I own both AMIGA and Archimedes since their beginning.

When A500 came out the 68K run at 7 MHz and most instructions needed 4 - 20 cycles.
The average instruction was around 8 cycles maybe.

When the Archimedes came out it ran at 8 MHz and each instruction needed 1 cycle.

Yes the 68K supports more complex instructions.
For some 68K instructions the ARM needs 1 instruction.
For many it needs 2, or 3.
Sometimes the ARM needs even many more like 4, 5 or 6

But even when the 68K in the A500 could do the work of 5 ARM instruction with a single 68K instruction - this single 68K instruction took like 20 cycles on the 68_000

This means the ARM was always faster.
If you compared the 8MHz ARM with the 7MHz 68000 the ARM was always much faster.
And at this time it good some myth of performance.

Now today the situation is very different.
Today a good 68K CPU can execute even complex 68K instruction in a single cycle.
For example:
ADDI.L #1234567, $1234(A7)
A good 68k can execute this instruction in 1 single cycle today.

A good ARM needs about 6 instruction to do the same work.

As you see today - clock by clock - the 68K is much stronger.

Offline klx300r

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Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #98 on: June 26, 2014, 05:15:08 PM »
@ biggun

68k all the way:laughing::knuddel:
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Offline freqmax

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Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #99 on: June 26, 2014, 05:43:22 PM »
A single chip 68k with a standby current of 5 mA and sleep current at 1 µA, 128 kB RAM, 1024 kB flash, would be nice. Now where does one get that below 10 EUR ?
 

Offline amigadave

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Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #100 on: June 26, 2014, 06:20:41 PM »
Quote from: biggun;767568
Thanks, this is nice to hear.
Let me answer it this way.

Our plan is to bring out the card for every AMIGA model.
We also plan to then create a stand alone version of the card.

As you might know the people doing this CPU card previous worked in the NATAMI team...
Does this answer your question?

Thanks for that answer biggun.  And YES!, you should be proud of the work that has been done so far and if most of the Amiga community does not show their appreciation for your work, take it from me, there are hundreds and probably thousands of people who appreciate your work and were really looking forward to the Natami project being completed.  They now are looking forward to your project to bring us accelerator cards for all Amiga models.

I am guessing that your stand alone FPGA motherboard will NOT be the same as the Natami MX motherboard, is that correct?

It just seems a shame that so much work went into the Natami MX motherboard design, and it seemed to be so close to being completed enough to be released to the public for sale, even though there were some design goals and software components that had not been finished.

I see it as no different than my X1000 and AmigaOS4.x, which is still a WIP, while we wait for AmigaOS4.2 to be completed, with the many major design goals that are planned and being worked on.  

If the Natami MX motherboard had enough drivers completed, and was capable of running AmigaOS3.9 (with or without any of the proposed improvements to the AGA graphics system), I would want such a system.  Specially with all the improvements you and others have made in softcore 68k CPU designs.

I am sure I am not alone and many others would also purchase a Natami MX motherboard (or its successor, if you have designed a new stand alone motherboard), if we knew that development work was ongoing and would continue until all the design goals were completed.:)

Edit:  As one or two other Amiga users may have written already in other threads, it seems like the advancement of softcore 68k CPU design and Amiga custom chipset duplication in FPGA, is reaching a point where we should soon see an FPGA Amiga clone that outperforms any Classic Amiga system and 060 accelerator card combination.  Plus it should have the advantage of integrated Ethernet & USB ports and drivers, more memory, perhaps increased "Chip RAM", and some day in the future, enhanced graphics resolutions & color depth.  I think someone wrote that it is so close to happening, they can almost taste it.  When this finally happens, I expect to see renewed interest and development of add-on enhancements to AmigaOS3.9 that will begin to match features that have already been added to AmigaOS4.x and MorphOS and AROS.  The 68k programmers will come back, put their teeth back in, comb over their last few remaining hairs across their heads and use their walkers to get across the room to their computing desks, so they can start coding again.  :lol:
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 06:43:02 PM by amigadave »
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #101 on: June 26, 2014, 06:50:49 PM »
Quote
if most of the Amiga community does not show their appreciation for your work

..community not showing appreciation??? i wonder how possibly have you missed the feedback the project receives here, on a1k or particularly on eab. these are most popular and lively threads. okay, there are some unrealistic wishes and a little bragging as always, there are  different strong opinions, but mostly if there is criticism, its a constructive one, people, especially the knowledganle ones, take this project definitely serious, just dont want it to be in vain.

Quote
It just seems a shame that so much work went into the Natami MX motherboard design, and it seemed to be so close to being completed enough to be released to the public for sale

natami was initially a private one-man hardware project. it doesnt look like there ever was a plan how to build this hardware in numbers, distribute it and handle support. it may have been advanced as a prototype but releasing it is the whole other issue.

Quote
I see it as no different than my X1000 and AmigaOS4.x, which is still a WIP, while we wait for AmigaOS4.2 to be completed, with the many major design goals that are planned and being worked on.

it is completely different in my eyes, starting with the amount of funds involved, the experienced companies and the distribution channels involved in it. and exactly here it shows that even such entities may get over challenged by the complexity of such projects.
 

Offline amigadave

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Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #102 on: June 26, 2014, 07:10:59 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;767628
..community not showing appreciation???

I did not say that he was NOT getting support, I meant IF he did not feel he was getting enough support.  Most users remain silent and don't post to any forum sites, though they may read them every day.  So, I just meant that IMO, he has great support of the community, even if he does not see it often.  (Edit:  Sadly, I don't have time to visit EAB or A1k forum sites, except for rare occasions when a link in a forum post on A.org or AW.net takes me there)


Quote
it is completely different in my eyes, starting with the amount of funds involved, the experienced companies and the distribution channels involved in it. and exactly here it shows that even such entities may get over challenged by the complexity of such projects.
My comparison was not the companies or individuals behind each effort, but the fact that both systems (as far as I could tell) were working well enough to let users begin playing with them, but that some of the major design goals were still a WIP.  

That was the only part I was comparing.  Even if the work on 68k soft core CPUs and boards like the FPGA Arcade Replay, or biggun's accelerator boards and stand alone motherboard, were to go Open Source and users had to make small production runs of the pcb's themselves (I don't think that either are planned to go Open Source, just saying if they did), I think the situation would still be similar, in that most of the design work has been completed, to the point where both are usable, but some goals are still being worked on.

It appears that there are enough developers interested in making an advanced FPGA Amiga clone, and certainly enough users still interested in buying and using one, to keep these projects moving forward and they should very soon produce a system that surpasses the best Classic Amiga we have so far had to use.  Exciting times for users wanting to stay with 68k based Amiga systems.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 07:20:01 PM by amigadave »
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline biggun

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Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #103 on: June 26, 2014, 07:33:17 PM »
Hi Dave.

thanks for the nice words. its appreciated.

The Amiga commity seems a lot smaller to me.
Its hard to estimate how many people are still around.
Would be good to know how big the market really is today.
Producing 100 or 2000 boards would make a difference in the price.

Offline wawrzon

Re: A project I'd like to see from Jens...
« Reply #104 on: June 26, 2014, 08:47:33 PM »
Quote
The Amiga commity seems a lot smaller to me.
judging by the activity on forums one could come to such a conclusion, yes. while the lack of motivation and the ageing process will surely affect all parties, the genuine amiga fraction is likely to sustain this best, since it has least at risky stack but their since twenty years verified values, and therefore is probably least affected by disappointments. im not even talking about the forum crowd. however will be difficult to estimate the target audience nevertheless.