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Author Topic: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?  (Read 20874 times)

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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #74 from previous page: June 14, 2014, 07:02:09 PM »
Quote from: freqmax;766649
Perhaps Amiga would have gone with MIPS and some more unix like sw?
Good Lord no. MIPS was still professional Unix workstation stuff in 1985. The Amiga didn't pick 68k because IBM didn't, they picked it because it was a powerful but cost-effective architecture for the time.
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Offline freqmaxTopic starter

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #75 on: June 15, 2014, 04:34:52 AM »
Seems the conclusion on x86 is that it was all haphazard and then nobody wanted to do a clean break. Well until smartphones forced the issue due power constraints.
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2014, 05:56:02 AM »
Precisely. The whole thing hinged around compatibility with the IBM PC architecture pretty much from the start. There were a few points (OS/2 on PPC and NT on Alpha) where it looked like there might've been a chance of breaking off and doing legacy support in emulation, but it never took.
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Offline freqmaxTopic starter

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2014, 05:06:54 AM »
So now that processors have a frequency ceiling the businesses that stay with x86 will see their competitors run other stuff way faster due efficiencies .. ;)
 

Offline persia

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #78 on: June 16, 2014, 11:41:02 AM »
ARM is the sole survivor and they are concentrating on the tablet/phone half of the market.   PPC is for all intents and purposes dead after being abandoned by the game console makers.  Freescale isn't in the competition for speed at all.  

Quote from: freqmax;766823
So now that processors have a frequency ceiling the businesses that stay with x86 will see their competitors run other stuff way faster due efficiencies .. ;)
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #79 on: June 16, 2014, 12:16:48 PM »
Quote from: persia;766847
ARM is the sole survivor and they are concentrating on the tablet/phone half of the market.   PPC is for all intents and purposes dead after being abandoned by the game console makers.
Keep repeating that; it won't make it true.
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Offline ElPolloDiabl

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #80 on: June 16, 2014, 12:36:11 PM »
No. we will be running Amiga OS on old PowerPC servers in ten years time. lol

Personally the lack of software available on MorphOS and OS4 is a big turn off. 68k Amiga has just enough to keep me going.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #81 on: June 16, 2014, 12:49:40 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;766851
Keep repeating that; it won't make it true.


I will quote Neil DeGrasse Tyson: "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not believe in it".

I'm not sure if your gripe was about the emergence of ARM as the next major processor architecture, or that the PPC is now a dead platform with only a few legacy devices left in the supply chain. Both statements seem reasonable to me, and backed up by the evidence available.

Offline psxphill

Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #82 on: June 16, 2014, 12:59:43 PM »
Quote from: freqmax;766697
Seems the conclusion on x86 is that it was all haphazard and then nobody wanted to do a clean break.

Most successful things are haphazard. The last successful good design I have seen is the PlayStation, but even that has some hardware bugs that they had to maintain throughout the life of the console because fixing them would hurt compatibility.
 
Quote from: freqmax;766823
So now that processors have a frequency ceiling the businesses that stay with x86 will see their competitors run other stuff way faster due efficiencies .. ;)

x86 has always run faster than arm, the only thing arm has is lower power consumption. Which is very important in a phone, tablet or handheld games console. When the device is constantly tethered to the mains it becomes a less important consideration. I have an arm powered NAS, because it's cheap and quiet but it's woefully underpowered.
 
Intel have managed to get power usage for their phone chipsets down a lot in the last few years though. In some cases they have performed identically with lower power, Arm continues to dominate the market because of momentum.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 01:21:54 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #83 on: June 16, 2014, 01:12:35 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;766854
Most successful things are haphazard. The last successful good design I have seen is the PlayStation, but even that has some hardware bugs that they had to maintain throughout the life of the console because fixing them would hurt compatibility.


It always comes down to the real world vs the perfect world. A concept might be beautiful and elegant. But in the real world, compromises must be made.

Quote

Intel have managed to get power usage for their phone chipsets down a lot in the last few years though.


But as you will find if you try a low power intel chip, when they get the power usage down to ARM levels they struggle to offer the performance that ARM can. The converse is also true, as ARM ramp up performance, power usage increases to Intel x86 levels.

Offline biggun

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #84 on: June 16, 2014, 02:57:36 PM »
While ARM and PPC are load/store machines - x86 and 68K are CISC machines.


The decoding is much simpler for RISC machines.
This means when you compare a real simple CORE which does 1 instruction per cycle the RISC machine is smaller /needs less power.

Also decoding multiple instructions is in the naive approach a lot simpler with RISC machines.
This means developing a super-scalar decoder is simpler for RISC.
But Intel,AMD and also new 68K chips have found their solutions to also be able to fast decode several instructions per cycle.

Now a CISC machine also has several advantages.
1) CISC instructions are much more powerful than RISC instructions.
For example:
ADDi.L #12456,(48,A0,Dn*8)
1 instruction on CISC  - some CISC can even do this in 1 cycle.
= you need about 6 instructions to do the same on POWER

2) CISC instruction are much more compact.
This means caches can cache more instructions, and cache can also supply moer instrucitoner per cycle to the CPU.

To good designed CISC machine can do a lot of work per cycle.
Its not easy even for good RISC machines to keep up with this.

RISC has some clear advantages.
RISC chips are seasier to design.
Low performance = simple RISC chips need low power.

When you go high end the more complex CISC decoder is not the only problem anymore.
- Instruction Cache bandwidth limitations
- dependancies between instructions
There are the important topics.
RISC is no advantage here.

EPIC tries to address some of those but also has their very own pitfalls.

So yes - I can see that ARM has by design an advantage in the low performance region.
But in the high perfromance region - the problems are diffirent - and RISC is not in advantage here anymore.

Offline freqmaxTopic starter

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #85 on: June 16, 2014, 05:53:47 PM »
Lets not forget MIPS..
 

Offline TeamBlackFox

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #86 on: June 16, 2014, 06:16:32 PM »
Agreed I'd love to see a good MIPS desktop come about - but until then my 2.5 Ghz G5 quad is trucking right along - just checked the cooling unit the other day, its in fantastic shape. The case has seen better days, but thats just superficial.

I have an SGI Fuel running at 600mhz and it works very well for basic things - but if I need the oomph my G5 can take it. I also have a dream of getting an SGI Tezro, but that will be when I'm in better finances.
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Offline Nlandas

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #87 on: June 16, 2014, 06:32:00 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;766853
I will quote Neil DeGrasse Tyson: "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not believe in it".


   Yes, he usually says that right before he makes up some nonsense that you have to be a fervent believer in that has little to do with actual science.
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Offline psxphill

Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #88 on: June 16, 2014, 08:33:43 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;766855
But as you will find if you try a low power intel chip, when they get the power usage down to ARM levels they struggle to offer the performance that ARM can. The converse is also true, as ARM ramp up performance, power usage increases to Intel x86 levels.

The benchmarks I saw were identical performance with Intel showing lower power usage. Supposedly the problem for Intel today is they haven't got a chipset with 4G support.
 
Arm architecture has changed a lot since the beginning, it's not a simple RISC processor anymore.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: What's so bad about Intel 8086 in technical terms?
« Reply #89 on: June 16, 2014, 08:46:31 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;766903
The benchmarks I saw were identical performance with Intel showing lower power usage. Supposedly the problem for Intel today is they haven't got a chipset with 4G support.


I'd be intrigued to see that. I've not seen the ARM bested in power consumption stats.

Quote

Arm architecture has changed a lot since the beginning, it's not a simple RISC processor anymore.


Hahahahah, there's no such thing as CISC and RISC anymore, all modern processors are a hybrid of these two concepts.

The best solution to most problems are hybrids.