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Offline CountRavenTopic starter

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Yet another Amiga -4000- hardware issue
« on: January 19, 2014, 06:33:14 AM »
Hello Amiga fellows. The time has come to ask about your great help and support for one more time.

If you are boring to read all this... Well the case is that the machine locks up on boot after a hard reboot attempt -power off and on-, it would get back to normal after ten or fifteen minutes.

So,

I have got back my Amiga 4000 today.

The motherboard is fixed, it got a damaged cia chip. Also some upgrades were made, PIO2 upgrade etc. So a new fixed mobo in town.

Everything was put together and back in action. My Cyberstorm PPC, with 128MB of RAM, my Picasso IV -Paloma TV card module included-, my Deneb USB card, a DVDRW and a hard disk, everything powered from a Liteon PSU. The on board RAM is 4MB chip and 16MB Fast Ram on five sticks, 4MB each. Those sticks were not the ones that my mobo used to have, but they were reported working on another 4000.

This configuration was working well in the past.

So, those are the symptoms that make me want to ask for advice.

The machine would boot fine. AmigaOS 3.9, AmigaOS 4.1 on all their victory. MorphoOS PowerUP was not booting, it used to with same configuration. Now this was a no go, actually the machine locked up when trying to boot in this partition, no drive clicks, however I am able to soft reset only to get on the same state. Anyway this is NOT the main problem but read above.

This is the important problem.

I discovered that the same symptoms would be presented when I switch off the machine and reboot. Let me explain. Amiga is off, I would power it on, it would boot and work fine. If I would turn tne machine off and power it on again after some minutes, it would lock up on the Deneb initial screen that appears on boot. Yes. I have tried without Deneb the machine simply locks up, anyway.

HDD light stays on.
No drive activity.
No booting.
There is caps lock on the keyboard and I am able to reset.

And sometimes a green screen on boot and then black screen, or as I said freezing on Deneb's intro screen. If I turn off the machine and turn on again for example on three or five minutes, it is still not booting.. But if I leave it off for a half an hour, or a quarter. It would boot normally.

So,

"Green screen means bad chip RAM", I thought. So I changed the RAM. Pulled out the five sticks of 16MB I was ussing and tried to boot with no RAM at all, thinking the the RAM on Cyberstorm will do the job. No booting. I tried with a single 8mb stick. Machine booted. I think I was using this 8MB stick initially on this Amiga.

Now the MorphOS is booting fine. So that kind explains that this should be a RAM problem. But the same prob remains. After second or third rebbot the nachine locks up on boot.

I have put the 8MB stick on the upper chip RAM socket.

The machine reboots perfectly on every soft reset from keyboard.

This PIO2 upgrade mainly improves hard disk speed, trying to test the hard disk behavior copying sn entire partition through AmigaOS 4.1, everything worked well, no crushes. Done that thinking that this upgrade could be the problem. It is actually a chip replacement on mobo.


Do you think is a memory issue?
Is there a way to bypass the on board RAM and use only the Cyberstorm RAM? Yes it is brand new.
Any further thoughts, ideas, advice?.

I will expect your replies.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 07:14:49 AM by CountRaven »
Peg2, Amiga 500, Amiga 600, Amiga 1200D-030, Amiga 1200PPC, Amiga 4000PPC, CD32, 2xCDTV, Sam 440EP, Efika, AmigaOne XE.

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Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: Yet another Amiga -4000- hardware issue
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2014, 06:48:30 AM »
Not sure I understand. If you're saying everything works fine under 3.9 and 4.1, it sounds like it's just a software problem with your other OS.

Yes, 2MB of chip ram is the max for any (non-emulation) Amiga.
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline CountRavenTopic starter

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Re: Yet another Amiga -4000- hardware issue
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2014, 07:00:42 AM »
Please see initial post I made some upgrades.

No matter in what OS I would boot I would get this lock up after a second or third reboot.

Yes I am getting 2mb chip, I just use 4 or 8mb sticks.
Peg2, Amiga 500, Amiga 600, Amiga 1200D-030, Amiga 1200PPC, Amiga 4000PPC, CD32, 2xCDTV, Sam 440EP, Efika, AmigaOne XE.

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Offline BLTCON0

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Re: Yet another Amiga -4000- hardware issue
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2014, 04:15:06 PM »
Quote from: CountRaven;757518
...
The motherboard is fixed, it got a damaged cia chip. Also some upgrades were made, PIO2 upgrade etc. So a new fixed mobo in town.

Is it certified that the cia chip was properly replaced and that the CIAs were not just swapped around?

Quote
Everything was put together and back in action. My Cyberstorm PPC, with 128MB of RAM, my Picasso IV -Paloma TV card module included-, my Deneb USB card, a DVDRW and a hard disk, everything powered from a Liteon PSU. The on board RAM is 4MB chip and 16MB Fast Ram on five sticks, 4MB each. Those sticks were not the ones that my mobo used to have, but they were reported working on another 4000.

If you're having problems it's never wise to test with a loaded system. Strip it down to the bare minimum first, install a basic OS and begin from there. It sounds like an OS independent hardware issue anyway so it wouldn't matter much what is installed.

Quote
This configuration was working well in the past.

But this is not the same configuration that was working well in the past. RAM sticks are different, upgrades have been performed... it's not an accurate comparison.

Quote
...
HDD light stays on.
No drive activity.
No booting.
There is caps lock on the keyboard and I am able to reset.

Being able to reset is little comfort, it just means that the circuitry which detects the 500 ms KCLK low pulse is working ok and once this specific pulse is detected it asserts _KBRESET (hard reset).

HDD light has nothing to do with the motherboard, it's driven by the hard disk itself.

Quote
And sometimes a green screen on boot and then black screen, or as I said freezing on Deneb's intro screen. If I turn off the machine and turn on again for example on three or five minutes, it is still not booting.. But if I leave it off for a half an hour, or a quarter. It would boot normally.

The green screen with a Deneb present is common even with working systems, I wouldn't put much weight on it. May have to do with the state of Deneb's flash ROM. Anyway, you should have the Deneb removed (along with everything else) while testing this out, why would you insist on testing with a loaded system is beyond me.


Quote
So,

"Green screen means bad chip RAM", I thought. So I changed the RAM. Pulled out the five sticks of 16MB I was ussing and tried to boot with no RAM at all, thinking the the RAM on Cyberstorm will do the job.

The first stick on revB motherboards is Chip RAM, no real Amiga can boot without chip RAM. So at least that stick must be present. RevD motherboards have the chip RAM onboard, so it's a given there.

Quote
No booting. I tried with a single 8mb stick. Machine booted. I think I was using this 8MB stick initially on this Amiga.

No booting as expected due to the lack of chip RAM, yes booting as expected with chip RAM back.

Quote
Now the MorphOS is booting fine. So that kind explains that this should be a RAM problem. But the same prob remains. After second or third rebbot the nachine locks up on boot.

I have put the 8MB stick on the upper chip RAM socket.

Which is the chip RAM socket.

Quote
The machine reboots perfectly on every soft reset from keyboard.

It's not a soft reset, it's a hard reset as described above. Soft reset on the Amiga is not present on all machines (it's actually called "reset warning") and should not be relied upon.

Quote
This PIO2 upgrade mainly improves hard disk speed, trying to test the hard disk behavior copying sn entire partition through AmigaOS 4.1, everything worked well, no crushes. Done that thinking that this upgrade could be the problem. It is actually a chip replacement on mobo.

At this point I would try to forego using IDE and just install a SCSI disk on the CS PPC. I never understood the obsession with the PIO2 upgrade anyway, but that's a personal choice. Useless to me. So if the GALs that were replaced have some sort of initialisation trouble after they've heated up, it could be the culprit. You could try keeping them cold with heatsinks etc and see if anything changes.


Quote
Do you think is a memory issue?

No.

Quote
Is there a way to bypass the on board RAM and use only the Cyberstorm RAM? Yes it is brand new.

You definitely cannot bypass the chip RAM as already explained.
You can leave the motherboard fast RAM off and only use the RAM on the CS PPC, after all access to the motherboard RAM is much slower as it's done via 68030 bus emulation.

Quote
Any further thoughts, ideas, advice?.

Sounds like a bad IC problem. Or a bad solder joint problem, but that usually works the other way round.
If the Buster chip is socketed, you can pull it out and carefully clean its pins by brushing them softly with a white rubber. Not that much should be expected from this.
 

Offline CountRavenTopic starter

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Re: Yet another Amiga -4000- hardware issue
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2014, 09:42:53 AM »
Thanks for the in depth reply.

Please note the 8mb sticks were the original I used to have. So very close to the original config, minus the upgrade.

I discovered this: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=64203, please see forth post, it totally describes my problem.

However I checked the mobo and it has the fix.

I tried booting with a Workbench 1.3 floppy, managed to do six reboots and then the machine locked up again. This could be a random fact.

Took out Deneb and Picasso, booted on floppy with a 1084 on the machine, managed to do two or three reboots, then the lock up.

I was unable to check without the cyberstorm, I have not got another cpu card.

Will try to put the original chips back taking out this pio2 upgrade, please note, those pio2 chips are not getting hot.

Ps. Scsi is not an option for me.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 10:01:49 AM by CountRaven »
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Offline CountRavenTopic starter

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Re: Yet another Amiga -4000- hardware issue
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2014, 02:45:49 PM »
I sm seriously thinking to put back the original chips, taking out the ones of the PIO2 upgrade...

They can be put out with a tool... Never did something similar... Is there any guide for such task on youtube?

I need to take an idea of the whole thing.

Or perhaps some photos...
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Offline CountRavenTopic starter

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Re: Yet another Amiga -4000- hardware issue
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2014, 02:31:43 PM »
Problem solved, put back the original chips, removing the ones of the pio2 upgrade. Problem solved.
Peg2, Amiga 500, Amiga 600, Amiga 1200D-030, Amiga 1200PPC, Amiga 4000PPC, CD32, 2xCDTV, Sam 440EP, Efika, AmigaOne XE.

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