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Author Topic: which is best for music Atari or Amiga  (Read 26436 times)

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Offline Iggy

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2014, 09:45:23 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;757551
The YM2149 was a slightly updated version f the ay-3-8912
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AY-3-8912
 
So it's not really a "Yamaha" sound chip.
 
Back in the 8 bit days it was used on the Sinclair 128 and Amstrad CPC, where it didn't really get the number of people writing decent music to push the chip. I've never heard anything that matches the SID, which was the only really good commodore sound chip. If you have any examples you'd like me to listen to then I'd love to listen.
 
Paula isn't a commodore chip, but we'll go with that if you like. As a sample player it can do anything the YM2149 can do, but with more or less CPU required. Atari-ST demos spent a lot of CPU time trying to make it play samples, but generating samples in realtime on the Amiga would take some cpu time. I think the balance was right though.

Spoken like someone convinced.
Yes, the YM series starts with a knock off but then moves to some very complex versions afterward.
By the time you get to the OPN3 (YM2608) you've got the built-in functions of the original, plus a six-channel FM synthesis sound system based around the YM2203, a single channel for 8 bit samples, and a six channel rhythm generator.

Considerably more complex than SID, and again, better than Paula (which never evolved).

And if you look, you'll find plenty of samples, with far more concurrent voices than SID or Paula can handle.

"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline paul1981

Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #60 on: January 20, 2014, 12:25:00 AM »
Quote from: kickstart;757553
A tribute to atari on a.org this time... is incredible how the amiga always loses on a.org, sorry for the comment but its funny.

I'm agree. Especially when it looses to an Atari.... even funnier LOL.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2014, 02:30:39 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;757558
There were indeed; they were just unfortunately vastly outweighed by the crap...

I honestly can't see your point as it equates the quality of the artist's work with the hardware.
And those previous examples of Adlib sound are a sterling example of how much better Yamaha sound generation is than that used in the C64 or the Amiga.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2014, 03:33:52 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;757577
I honestly can't see your point as it equates the quality of the artist's work with the hardware.
I agree that this is an unfair view; nevertheless, it's the kind of unfair view humans are given to, frequently without even realizing it, because we tend to apply negative associations to pretty much anything involved in a negative experience, however indirectly. It's the same sort of logic that led to me thinking I just didn't like beer for about five years when all I'd had was Anheiser-Busch crap. A sensible conclusion? Not remotely, as I discovered later; nonetheless, kind of an understandable one.

Quote
And those previous examples of Adlib sound are a sterling example of how much better Yamaha sound generation is than that used in the C64 or the Amiga.
They're good examples of what even simple 2-op FM can do when used well, to be sure; however, arguing that FM is just unequivocally altogether better than other hardware is a little more difficult to support. The OPL2 has the advantage in terms of polyphony, certainly, and is capable of some lovely highs - but the Amiga is capable of a vastly broader range of timbres, and the SID, limited as it is, has (for most people, though I gather not for yourself) an extremely pleasing quality when used well.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

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Offline Iggy

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2014, 04:06:04 AM »
Actually john,
This is a pretty silly disagreement overall.
The biggest problem I have with the YM series is the complications inherent in programming them.
None of the chips is really that useful without some decent software.

And now that I think about it, I've seen some great stuff done with D to A converters without sound synthesis chips.

It really comes down to good programming and musical ability.

Without those two, you can produce "crap" on any hardware.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2014, 04:50:15 AM »
True enough, that.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #65 on: January 20, 2014, 05:03:44 AM »
(Also, would've PMed this, but your inbox is full... - you've mentioned before that you were working on a homebrew project  using a Yamaha FM sound source; do you have any words of wisdom to share  on the subject? Our discussion has got me kinda hankering to come up  with an OPL2-based keyboard synthesizer...)
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline itix

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2014, 06:47:03 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;757548
Not really, the TED was atrocious.

The SID is special because of the unique sound it makes, there is nothing else like it.


90% of original SID tunes are crap. To make good use of it you had to be good coder and also understand limitations of the sound chip.
My Amigas: A500, Mac Mini and PowerBook
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2014, 01:32:13 PM »
Quote from: Fats;757542
An interview with an old Amiga user a few people may know...
Amarok was composed on the Amiga!? Wow! That I didn't know, and basically nullifies any argument the ST guys can come up with.

Mr Moonlight will have post back here, his experiences with the platform when he has had a chance to play with it :)

Offline nicholas

Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2014, 02:03:32 PM »
Quote from: itix;757593
90% of original SID tunes are crap. To make good use of it you had to be good coder and also understand limitations of the sound chip.

Indeed, same as with other synths.

The Adlib in the hands of JCH is lovely, just as the SID was in the hands of Galway, Hubbard and Huelsbeck.

I actually have Ocean Loader 2 as my ringtone. :)
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Offline Jpan1

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2014, 02:54:43 PM »
Two Amigas linked together through a Yamaha mixer was my option for music creation, one Amiga produced the sounds and the other did the effects through Audiomaster II.
 

Offline Borut

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #70 on: January 20, 2014, 03:25:05 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;757608
Amarok was composed on the Amiga!? Wow! That I didn't know, and basically nullifies any argument the ST guys can come up with.

Mr Moonlight will have post back here, his experiences with the platform when he has had a chance to play with it :)


I think that was an Atari, because of the sw used, he mixed up the names - someone checked the facts in some forum.
 

Offline Ral-Clan

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2014, 03:35:39 PM »
Since we're discussing the musical aesthetics of some audio chips here, I'd like to voice my opinion on one I have grown fond of.

The VIC I chip from the Commodore VIC-20 (MOS6560).

I know it's only capable of square waveforms - which one might think would make it sound like any other square wave chip.  But it's got this weird, unique sound.  The bass it produces is really growling with a lot of low harmonics.  It's not a hugely versatile chip - but I find it has a lot of character.

It does have some rather nice capabilities in terms of sound - it can do three square wave voices and also has an additional noise channel.

Here is a link to VIC-I native audio:
http://youtu.be/rjb1orkZB-Q

People have also been able to use it to emulate a SID - so it can do SID sounds (not merely play a digitized SID music file):
http://youtu.be/8dMM4MqGuqU
http://youtu.be/YNgWU99iVIE

OH!  And people have recently found that the VIC-I chip is capable of generating several other waveforms it was not designed to generate:
http://rga24.blogspot.ca/2008/10/fourier-series-of-vic-20-tone-generator.html

These new waveforms can be heard in the VIC-20 demo "Robotic Liberation" (which is quite impressive):
http://youtu.be/2SdGkkp1aq8

(wait until you get to about 1:07 when the Robot Master starts speaking).
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 04:41:01 PM by ral-clan »
Music I've made using Amigas and other retro-instruments: http://theovoids.bandcamp.com
 

Offline nicholas

Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #72 on: January 20, 2014, 04:04:24 PM »
Quote from: ral-clan;757614
Since we're discussing the musical aesthetics of some audio chips here, I'd like to voice my opinion on one I have grown fond of.

The VIC I chip from the Commodore VIC-20.

I know it's only capable of square waveforms - which one might think would make it sound like any other square wave chip.  But it's got this weird, unique sound.  The bass it produces is really growling with a lot of low harmonics.  It's not a hugely versatile chip - but I find it has a lot of character.

It does have some rather nice capabilities in terms of sound - it can do four voices and also has a noise channel.

Here is a link to VIC-I native audio:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjb1orkZB-Q

People have also been able to use it to emulate a SID - so it can do SID sounds (not merely play a digitized SID music file):
http://youtu.be/8dMM4MqGuqU
http://youtu.be/YNgWU99iVIE


Listen to the sweet sound of the little VIC from 4:18 onwards. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxny-mqB4f8
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Offline Ral-Clan

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #73 on: January 20, 2014, 04:21:00 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;757617
Listen to the sweet sound of the little VIC from 4:18 onwards. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxny-mqB4f8


I don't know what happened there.  That seemed to link to the wrong video (still a nice video).  The demo I meant to link to of the VIC-20 audio is here:

http://youtu.be/rjb1orkZB-Q
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 04:29:12 PM by ral-clan »
Music I've made using Amigas and other retro-instruments: http://theovoids.bandcamp.com
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: which is best for music Atari or Amiga
« Reply #74 from previous page: January 20, 2014, 04:34:16 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;757608
Amarok was composed on the Amiga!? Wow! That I didn't know, and basically nullifies any argument the ST guys can come up with.

Mr Moonlight will have post back here, his experiences with the platform when he has had a chance to play with it :)

Bloodline, you seem desperate to "nullify" a counter argument.
I think the point we have all reached makes perfect sense.
Its really a matter of the skill to use the tools available.
For God's sake, some of these guys are pointing to fairly interesting pieces produced by a Vic I chip.
So, I have no problem continuing to support the YM2149 and its descendants.

And if we are actually talking music production, Ral-clan summarized the advantage pretty clearly awhile ago, "one had a MIDI interface built in (Atari) and the other did not".
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"