AmigaONE X5000 (A-Eon Technology Ltd on Facebook)

[Everblue]

No but it would be the first step to make the OS to be more accessible.
You have to start somewhere.

[wawrzon]

If Trevor followed any economic sense or logic he wouldn't be in the Amiga market at all.
The fact that he decided to ignore sense and spend his money the way he wanted to - rather than the way many would deem sensible - is something I and many other AmigaOS 4 users are very grateful to him for.

Basic economics says that it's impossible to make much money in the Amiga market these days. Supply can be made but the demand isn't there. Therefore supply has to be lessened. Less supply means higher prices - economies of scale. Higher prices then means less demand. Getting the balance right is very tricky and I think Trevor did it well with the X1000.

Trevor aimed for the high end of the Amiga market, leaving Acube with the low end, which makes complete sense. That meant using high end components like the PA6T despite the cost, on the grounds that the Amiga users really wanting as fast a machine as possible would have deep enough pockets, and they did.
 
Commodore were in a BIG market but Trevor isn't - hardly anyone wants a platform with very little software, even at a low price. In the 80s, small companies existed to make big games and programs, which helped push demand. Today people expect programs made with budgets in tens if millions of dollars or more.  Not practical on a tiny OS.

Whatever we do, we will never be able to take advantage of economies of scale like Commodore did, it's just impossible. Comparing Commodore to A-Eon is pointless unless you also compare the meerkat that A-Eon and Commodore are in.

Trevor knows full well about economics, but he chose to spend his money the way he wanted to and benefited hundreds of others in the process, and for that I applaud him.

isnt that mantra of small scale economics anything but a self fulfilling propecy? i mean one could even imagine a strategy to address a wider audience and therefore lower entry cost even with some custom system (as its been proven in case of raspi and similar projects that do not even have a legacy to build upon). but i dont think, one should start with developing yet another similar hardware in the particular case of os4. it would be more important to establish actual unique (software) features (not xmos) and secure steady development to attract young users, and this is where the initial investments should have gone. the current strategy instead seems rather to addres exclusively the existing well-off collector user base, where the price point doesnt really matters and the drawbacks are easily accepted as long as the system is not neccessarily needed for actual usage. the minor questions like a naming convention arent going to solve the matter either.

[amigakit]

@EverBlue,

OK, one example scenario: A-EON buys 10,000 units of off the shelf x86 motherboards without CPU at about $1m cost, which will likely be discontinued stock in 3-6 months in the PC world.

Then Hyperion takes at least 18 months to port the OS to it.

What will happen?  Will customers want an x86 board in 2 years time branded as an "Amiga" that has long since expired its shelf life in PC world terms?   Or will they accept that it?  Will be be able to sell 10,000 units?  These are the business risks that would have to be taken.

In addition to the hardware, every third party software that has been written for PowerPC AmigaOS needs to be recompiled for the new x86 ISA under AmigaOS.

[Everblue]

A-eon dont have to buy anything, users would buy the motherboards from wherever they want to. OS4 and programmes will have only to be ported once. In case of newer motherboards Hyperion/Aeon could create newer drivers and sell them as system updates.

The only thing Amiga in Sam and nemo boards is the Operating System.

[wawrzon]

@EverBlue,

OK, one example scenario: A-EON buys 10,000 units of off the shelf x86 motherboards without CPU at about $1m cost, which will likely be discontinued stock in 3-6 months in the PC world.

Then Hyperion takes at least 18 months to port the OS to it.

why would you need to secure 10k units in advance once the os is ported to a a platform with rather well maintained backwardards compatibility. aros has proven that it is possible to maintain "amiga ng" system not only on x86 hardware.

What will happen?  Will customers want an x86 board in 2 years time branded as an "Amiga" that has long since expired its shelf life in PC world terms? Or will they accept that it?  

like they are already accepting an already by it specs at the release time outdated hardware?

Will be be able to sell 10,000 units?  These are the business risks that would have to be taken.

im not a position to lecture anyone, thats sure, but frankly, can you explain, how is your (aeon's) current strategy less risky?

In addition to the hardware, every third party software that has been written for PowerPC AmigaOS needs to be recompiled for the new x86 ISA under AmigaOS.

im not sure it should even been done. there is x86 amiga ng os. its aros. just port whatever os4 software you deem neccessary to it (i dont think there is much of it) and you are done with the x86 "amiga" transition.

edit: btw i dont think an os porting timeframe figure of 18 months is realistic. at least not for hyperion. judging the current progress pace when every single driver is taking forever i dont think they would ever complete such a task. another reason to go aros as a base, if you ask me.

[Everblue]

Thanks, I thought I was the only one seeing things differently here.

[spirantho]

isnt that mantra of small scale economics anything but a self fulfilling propecy? i mean one could even imagine a strategy to address a wider audience and therefore lower entry cost even with some custom system (as its been proven in case of raspi and similar projects that do not even have a legacy to build upon). but i dont think, one should start with developing yet another similar hardware in the particular case of os4. it would be more important to establish actual unique (software) features (not xmos) and secure steady development to attract young users, and this is where the initial investments should have gone. the current strategy instead seems rather to addres exclusively the existing well-off collector user base, where the price point doesnt really matters and the drawbacks are easily accepted as long as the system is not neccessarily needed for actual usage. the minor questions like a naming convention arent going to solve the matter either.

The steady development has to be done on hardware, though - and before the X1000, the highest end Amiga was the Sam 460 which doesn't have many of the features we need to keep up (SMP being the obvious example).
There's no point in just/ throwing money at software, as the hardware will then stagnate. By providing the hardware, Trevor has allowed other people to produce the software; the other way round, though, can't happen - if Trevor were to put money into software, there'd be no hardware to take advantage of it: people can't homebrew hardware platforms like they can software.

I think people have forgotten why the X1000 exists.

The X1000 was created to allow hardcore fans of the Amiga the chance to buy really powerful (for an Amiga) hardware, and to allow Hyperion a platform on which to build new features such as multi-processing, which are a necessity in computing today. It was never meant to be accessible or to gain new users, it was meant to provide the foundation upon which future hardware boards can be made. Without the X1000, most of the advancements that have been on OS4 (which are "under the hood" so non-developers can't see them yet - but trust me they are there) would not have been possible.

We can't move forward by standing still or by concentrating on what already exists, we need to keep pushing, and that requires boards like the X1000 to exist.

As for unique software features, I don't believe that's possible - much as I'd like to. Computing is too big a field, and expectations are too high these days. The RasPi was in a different situation because the goals are much lower (the PI is just a chip on a board with a video and USB sockets really, nothing like the complete system the X1000 is) and was always designed to run Linux so it had an existing semi-mainstream software base.

[Kremlar]

OK, one example scenario: A-EON buys 10,000 units of off the shelf x86 motherboards without CPU at about $1m cost, which will likely be discontinued stock in 3-6 months in the PC world.

 
 $100 per motherboard at qty. 10,000???  What are you buying?  There are solid board from reputable vendors for less than $60 in qty. 1 that run circles around the X1000 board technology-wise.  I'm sure you could get them for $50 or less at qty. 10,000.

Then Hyperion takes at least 18 months to port the OS to it.

 
 They might want to get started on a base x86 port ahead of time to avoid stock sitting for 18 months.  Your scenario exists in the custom PPC world, not in the x86 world.

What will happen? Will customers want an x86 board in 2 years time branded as an "Amiga" that has long since expired its shelf life in PC world terms? Or will they accept that it? Will be be able to sell 10,000 units? These are the business risks that would have to be taken.

 
 Well, some users are apparently willing to pay $3000+ for technology 6+ years old - so why not!  But again, that scenario doesn't exist.  
 
 Buy 5 boards today, start the base x86 port.  Once the base port is done the only problem is drivers for video, audio, etc... the same problems that existing with PPC hardware!  The only difference now is you no longer need to source custom hardware any longer.  You buy an off-the-shelf x86 board, develop drivers, and that's your new AmigaOne model for 2 years.  Rinse and repeat.  

In addition to the hardware, every third party software that has been written for PowerPC AmigaOS needs to be recompiled for the new x86 ISA under AmigaOS.

 
 Most Amiga users don't care about existing PPC software.  Bring classic software over with integrated emulation and let developers port what they want from PPC.

[Kremlar]

Whatever we do, we will never be able to take advantage of economies of scale like Commodore did, it's just impossible. Comparing Commodore to A-Eon is pointless unless you also compare the meerkat that A-Eon and Commodore are in.

 
 Funny, Raspberry Pi had no market when they started and they introduced incredibly cheap hardware and how many have they sold?

[spirantho]

The RPi has a huge established market (Linux and/or geek users) and is really just a cheap embedded chip on a board with a few sockets - orders of magnitude less complex than an X1000.

They knew that because the unit cost was going to be SO low, they could produce millions and they would sell, and recoup costs.
Design costs of RPi: Much, much lower.
Market size of RPi: Much, much higher.
Risk of producing 1,000,000 Rpi and taking advantage of economies of scale: Much, much lower.

Making 1,000,000 RPi = make a fortune. Making 1,000,000 Amiga boards of similar spec to X1000 = suicide.

The two cannot be compared.

[OlafS3]

@EverBlue,

OK, one example scenario: A-EON buys 10,000 units of off the shelf x86 motherboards without CPU at about $1m cost, which will likely be discontinued stock in 3-6 months in the PC world.

Then Hyperion takes at least 18 months to port the OS to it.

What will happen?  Will customers want an x86 board in 2 years time branded as an "Amiga" that has long since expired its shelf life in PC world terms?   Or will they accept that it?  Will be be able to sell 10,000 units?  These are the business risks that would have to be taken.

In addition to the hardware, every third party software that has been written for PowerPC AmigaOS needs to be recompiled for the new x86 ISA under AmigaOS.

You always insist on building custom boards. Why on earth when hardware is available everywhere? It makes economically no sense. Use X86 Macs like MorphOS team propably want or you have compatibility list with supported hardware. Use Linux kernel like the Arix team does. Or port it to ARM and support Raspberry. Developing own hardware makes no sense. Even Amigakit could sell custom build PCs then and earn money with it. Everything would make more sense than building "Highend" PPC based custom hardware (the problem is highend is not performance but only price).

[OlafS3]

The RPi has a huge established market (Linux and/or geek users) and is really just a cheap embedded chip on a board with a few sockets - orders of magnitude less complex than an X1000.

They knew that because the unit cost was going to be SO low, they could produce millions and they would sell, and recoup costs.
Design costs of RPi: Much, much lower.
Market size of RPi: Much, much higher.
Risk of producing 1,000,000 Rpi and taking advantage of economies of scale: Much, much lower.

Making 1,000,000 RPi = make a fortune. Making 1,000,000 Amiga boards of similar spec to X1000 = suicide.

The two cannot be compared.

Would a Amiga that would have sold like RPi not been better?

[OlafS3]

Thanks, I thought I was the only one seeing things differently here.

No you are not alone :-)

but Trevor is not interested in creating a Amiga-Market but creating his own small toys. So it will propably not happen. But the nice thing is there is one platform that is supporting X86/X64 and ARM. So people should support it where possible. MorphOS might change platform too in future, who knows. AmigaOS will not change platform because of missing money. Frieden brothers do not own the OS, they are propably contract workers/freelancers so a change would require lots of money and I do not see where they would get that. Trevor is mainly interested in his custom hardware and already invests further in new PPC hardware so I do not expect him to pay for a port.

[amigakit]

If you do not choose a product based on one specific x86 motherboard, A-EON or Hyperion will need to commission a wide ranging development of drivers and firmware for the any supported x86 motherboard because no two x86 motherboards are alike.

The developer resources (and financial cost) to keep pace with current x86 motherboard hardware developments would be significant, due to the short shelf life of x86 hardware.  Then you are paying to support motherboards that are discontinued within a few months of release.

It would be better from a practical and anti-piracy point of view to concentrate on a limited set of x86 motherboards.  Apple do exactly this.  However, an investment in securing these boards for the 2 years+ product life would be required.

Today's Linux community can support a wide range of x86 boards due to the huge pool of developers willing to write drivers and provide support for different hardware configurations.  AmigaOS developer community in contrast is very much smaller.

[OlafS3]

The steady development has to be done on hardware, though - and before the X1000, the highest end Amiga was the Sam 460 which doesn't have many of the features we need to keep up (SMP being the obvious example).
There's no point in just/ throwing money at software, as the hardware will then stagnate. By providing the hardware, Trevor has allowed other people to produce the software; the other way round, though, can't happen - if Trevor were to put money into software, there'd be no hardware to take advantage of it: people can't homebrew hardware platforms like they can software.

I think people have forgotten why the X1000 exists.

The X1000 was created to allow hardcore fans of the Amiga the chance to buy really powerful (for an Amiga) hardware, and to allow Hyperion a platform on which to build new features such as multi-processing, which are a necessity in computing today. It was never meant to be accessible or to gain new users, it was meant to provide the foundation upon which future hardware boards can be made. Without the X1000, most of the advancements that have been on OS4 (which are "under the hood" so non-developers can't see them yet - but trust me they are there) would not have been possible.

We can't move forward by standing still or by concentrating on what already exists, we need to keep pushing, and that requires boards like the X1000 to exist.

As for unique software features, I don't believe that's possible - much as I'd like to. Computing is too big a field, and expectations are too high these days. The RasPi was in a different situation because the goals are much lower (the PI is just a chip on a board with a video and USB sockets really, nothing like the complete system the X1000 is) and was always designed to run Linux so it had an existing semi-mainstream software base.

"As for unique software features, I don't believe that's possible - much as I'd like to"

I think a "unique" feature would be running faster on a hardware than competition. All Amiga-successors are simpler than Linux/Mac/Windows, that is sometimes a disadvantage but that can be a advantage in regards of performance. Even if some devs (including members of the MorphOS team) claim otherwise, performance is still very important and defines what can be done with a computer.

[OlafS3]

If you do not choose a product based on one specific x86 motherboard, A-EON or Hyperion will need to commission a wide ranging development of drivers and firmware for the any supported x86 motherboard because no two x86 motherboards are alike.

The developer resources to keep pace with current x86 motherboard hardware developments would be significant, due to the short shelf life of x86 hardware.

It would be better from a practical and anti-piracy point of view to concentrate on a limited set of x86 motherboards.  Apple do exactly this.

The Linux community can support a wide range of x86 boards due to the huge pool of developers willing to write drivers and provide support for different hardware configurations.

ARIX shows that it is possible to use Linux as base for driver support. Or you use Mac X86/X64 as hardware.

And BTW on X1000 parts of the hardware are unsupported and the functionality is added by additional cards. I do not see a real difference to build a PC using compatible off-the-shelf hardware.