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Author Topic: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation  (Read 23265 times)

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Offline nicholas

Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #74 from previous page: December 18, 2013, 09:53:32 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;754665
True story! I saw one last night for the first time, it was pretty amazing, if I had a few $ grand blowing a hole in my pocket I'd love to have one!  :D

I'd love one just for the nerd factor but I've got too many kids to justify spending that amount on a computer.

OS4.1 on my Pegasos II is enough for me.
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline zylesea

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #75 on: December 18, 2013, 11:43:46 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;754645

Expensive? Yes, but isn't it cool?


Yes, but only if you have a choice. The problem of OS4 is there is only überexpensive hardware, problem of MorphOS is there is only used rig (don't count he last Efikas though and  am glad the Sam460 port is proceeding again).
The other thing is that I indeed have a faible for some exotic hardware, but an even stronger faible for a fast Amigaish System. In theory I would love an Amiga on Power(n) (with n most current). But in reality given the choice between an "Amiga" for 3000 US$ running an a semi fast processor that even is not fully supported or run an Amiga on a "boring" pc/Apple that just flies and dosn't drain my wallet completely dry I knew which one I'd chose...

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #76 on: December 19, 2013, 01:03:41 AM »
Quote from: Andre.Siegel;754643
The cost for the PA6T is said to have floated between 600 USD and 1000 USD. If someone would have told them in advance how volatile the pricing would be


AFAIK, the PA6T was never truly on the open market before the Apple takeover, at least not at the time of X1000, hence there was no real market functions (supply/demand) for setting the price, right? Apple bought and effectively closed PA-Semi in April 2008. The first "Nemo" motherboard prototype was built mid-2009. By August 2011 the first production run of revision 2.1 for "the AmigaOne X1000 beta test team" was made, more than three years after the CPU's fate was sealed.

   "If someone would have told them in advance how volatile the pricing would be, I am certain that A-Eon would have picked a different processor"

:confused:

IIRC Varisys had a rather limited stack of CPU's from the 2007 shipment, the price they asked for them was IMHO very high (considering what the CPU offered in terms of performance and obvious longevity), and it was probably the only source (which I suppose is a kind of "market function" after all, it's called "monopoly"). At some point (or more than one) it seems Varisys simply decided to raise the price, probably as the limited stock decreased (since it would never, ever increase again). A-eon paid more money for a *PA6T CPU alone*, than an end user would pay for an entire Pegasos 2 motherboard including 7447 G4 CPU at its introduction price in *2004* (including VAT), and this was the *cheapest* price they got. *Then* it almost *doubled*.

I mean...

:crazy:

Quote
I am certain that A-Eon would have picked a different processor


I am actually kind of certain that the CPU choice was more of a "hype" thing (the new "Amiga" should have the most talked-about PPC CPU of the time), as well as the "Xorro"/"Xena" was a "hype" thing (Amiga Classic -> "Zorro", AmigaOne -> "Xorro"). It's just a feeling I have. Maybe because I simply can't identify any other logical reasons whatsoever.

Quote
Trevor himself stated that the engineering costs were about 200.000 USD, so around half of the amount you referenced. Considering the complexity of the mainboard and in comparison to the proposed MPC8610 mainboard to be designed by bplan, this number does not appear to be out of the ordinary at all.


OK, if that's true I stand corrected about the engineering costs, but it's still all "wrong", I mean, you can't spend $200,000 on engineering alone for a motherboard that can only sell in a hundred or so units (there was always an upper limit on available CPU's, even if they would reach out beyond the OS4 community)! And *then* another $600-$,1000 for the CPU alone. And *then* everything else on top of that! The thought is absurd, and it's certainly nothing to applaud IMHO, someone should have hit the emergency breaks at the first price quote from Varisys, long before the development even started! And the complexity is hardly anything positive here either, why is a complex design with features that nobody asked for or even can figure out a purpose for better than a simpler but cheaper design like the 8610 concept? Especially when the latter will probably outperform or at least about break even with the former, and cost *a lot* less?


Quote
I would like to emphasize that the 1.2M figure refers to manufacturing / production as well.


OK, since you emphasized that, how big is that production run? A hundred units? Two hundreds? Three hundred? More?

Or perhaps just the mentioned handful of prototype boards/SW development boards?

:confused:

Quote
If you take the 100.000 USD quote from bplan and assume you can sell 200 mainboards, each board would have to cost an additional 500 USD just to cover the engineering fees


But had bPlan developed the motherboard "in-house" for "themselves" (read: their own business), they would probably have "priced" the development costs differently, right? Then the *monetary costs* wouldn't have been $100.000 USD any more, it would be more a matter of unpaid work hours and materials. Like Jens Schönfeld probably also does, or Fab when developing Odyssey. Had Fab put a market price tag on all the work hours of his time (mostly evenings and weekends probably, making them even more "expensive") he spent on Odyssey based on the hourly salary of a senior western SW developer, it would hardly be open sourced at just a mere €7,500 EUR. And MorphOS would cost a lot more than the current €50-€111 EUR for the same reason. I have built my own house "myself". Granted, I paid some carpenters, electricians, plummer's, etc to do some (quite a lot) of the work, but I did a very much of the work myself. I did never put a price on my own "development", I invested my own time into the project. Had I paid craftsmen to do every single thing, it would have been a lot more expensive, and even if I could have afforded it myself, the price I would have to ask at a sale in order to not make a loss when/if I sell it would probably have been *way out* of consumer's reach in my area, hence the house would have ended up unsalable. But if I'd sell my house at the current going prices in the area, I would probably make a nice little "profit", since I didn't price my own work/time, or priced it very low, compared to a "commercial carpenter". Whatever I get between what I paid for the fixed costs of having craftsmen doing some of the work, and the final end-user price the new house owner pays me, will be my "profit", the cost of labor isn't there, it was never priced. Or rather, it would have become priced by that "profit", *that's* what my labor turned out to be worth. I actually think most small/independent HW/SW entrepreneurs reason a bit the same way, and are happy with that...?

Quote
I assume the management made a deliberate decision to not directly compete with ACube.


Ah, a "price ring" cartel, you mean?

;)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #77 on: December 19, 2013, 01:31:10 AM »
Here is where having talked to Paul Gentle (@ Varisys) before their connection to A-eon was announced, and since then having exchanged a few messages with Trevor helps.

Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754684
AFAIK, the PA6T was never truly on the open market before the Apple takeover, at least not at the time of X1000, hence there was no real market functions (supply/demand) for setting the price, right? Apple bought and effectively closed PA-Semi in April 2008. The first "Nemo" motherboard prototype was built mid-2009. By August 2011 the first production run of revision 2.1 for "the AmigaOne X1000 beta test team" was made, more than three years after the CPU's fate was sealed.
   "If someone would have told them in advance how volatile the pricing would be, I am certain that A-Eon would have picked a different processor"

:confused:IIRC Varisys had a rather limited stack of CPU's from the 2007 shipment, the price they asked for them was IMHO very high...

Wow! Who have YOU been talking to? Nope, wrong!

PA Semi announced after the Apple buyout that it would only take orders from established customers. And that at a later date a final order date would be announced.
A-eon's 'purchase' was actually made by Varisys as they had worked with this processor before and were therefore...wait for it...established customers.

I won't delve into your little sermon on market economics, but the last PA6Ts were bought on the open market by Trevors firm because they had exhusted Varisys' supply. And they paid more for these than the original units (as no more were being manufacturer the price went up).
A cost, I might add, that Trevor bore on himself rather than pass it on to X1000 buyers.


Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754684
I am actually kind of certain that the CPU choice was more of a "hype" thing (the new "Amiga" should have the most talked-about PPC CPU of the time), as well as the "Xorro"/"Xena" was a "hype" thing (Amiga Classic -> "Zorro", AmigaOne -> "Xorro"). It's just a feeling I have. Maybe because I simply can't identify any other logical reasons whatsoever.

Did you even read my post?
The PA6T was Hyperion's preference.
And, at the time, it was the best choice.



Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754684
OK, if that's true I stand corrected about the engineering costs, but it's still all "wrong", I mean, you can't spend $200,000 on engineering alone for a motherboard that can only sell in a hundred or so units (there was always an upper limit on available CPU's, even if they would reach out beyond the OS4 community)! And *then* another $600-$,1000 for the CPU alone. And *then* everything else on top of that! The thought is absurd, and it's certainly nothing to applaud IMHO, someone should have hit the emergency breaks at the first price quote from Varisys, long before the development even started! And the complexity is hardly anything positive here either, why is a complex design with features that nobody asked for or even can figure out a purpose for better than a simpler but cheaper design like the 8610 concept? Especially when the latter will probably outperform or at least about break even with the former, and cost *a lot* less?

Um, just how much do you think it takes to keep a handful of engineers gainfully employed?
And, have you ever worked for a firm that built custom motherboards (because I did).
These figures are actually rather low.

Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754684
But had bPlan developed the motherboard "in-house" for "themselves" (read: their own business), they would probably have "priced" the development costs differently, right? Then the *monetary costs* wouldn't have been $100.000 USD any more, it would be more a matter of unpaid work hours and materials. Like Jens Schönfeld probably also does, or Fab when developing Odyssey. Had Fab put a market price tag on all the work hours of his time (mostly evenings and weekends probably, making them even more "expensive") he spent on Odyssey based on the hourly salary of a senior western SW developer, it would hardly be open sourced at just a mere €7,500 EUR. And MorphOS would cost a lot more than the current €50-€111 EUR for the same reason. I have built my own house "myself". Granted, I paid some carpenters, electricians, plummer's, etc to do some (quite a lot) of the work, but I did a very much of the work myself. I did never put a price on my own "development", I invested my own time into the project. Had I paid craftsmen to do every single thing, it would have been a lot more expensive, and even if I could have afforded it myself, the price I would have to ask at a sale in order to not make a loss when/if I sell it would probably have been *way out* of consumer's reach in my area, hence the house would have ended up unsalable. But if I'd sell my house at the current going prices in the area, I would probably make a nice little "profit", since I didn't price my own work/time, or priced it very low, compared to a "commercial carpenter". Whatever I get between what I paid for the fixed costs of having craftsmen doing some of the work, and the final end-user price the new house owner pays me, will be my "profit", the cost of labor isn't there, it was never priced. Or rather, it would have become priced by that "profit", *that's* what my labor turned out to be worth. I actually think most small/independent HW/SW entrepreneurs reason a bit the same way, and are happy with that...?

Stated simply, you appear to have no concept how a business works, how costs are accounted for and handled, or the factors related to pricing a product.
And I assure you that you don't need the 16 credits of Economics I had to understand it (some people understand economics intuitively).
All costs have to be paid for.
You have very limited production.
AND a high cost for materials.

No conspiracy.
If you don't like it, don't buy it.

There is always Acube (on a value per dollar basis just as expensive, but a lower end cost).

Jim
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Offline bloodline

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #78 on: December 19, 2013, 10:49:18 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;754664
Heresy! :)

ISA's were perfected when Motorola designed the 68000.

I think it was you Matt that once said that AMD should have "Athlonized" the 68k and not the 386.

I couldn't agree more with that statement.

Now where did I put my pipe and slippers?
Definitely sounds like something I would have said, a search on this forum will provide evidence :)

I think Athlonising the 68k would have been amazing, but it would have lead to similar problems that both intel and AMD have now... Lovely computing performance but at a terrible thermal and electrical cost :(

Though it would have given us a solid platform for development... Look at the new ARM v8 ISA, it's actually a bit nasty compared to the ARM v7, but it was developed after analyzing real code output from compilers and seeing how to get serious performance in a low energy budget :)

-edit- Forgot to mention that I have an ARM v8 chip here, and it is something else in performance... In a phone too!!! :-D
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 11:12:56 AM by bloodline »
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #79 on: December 19, 2013, 10:51:39 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;754686
PA Semi announced after the Apple buyout that it would only take orders from established customers. And that at a later date a final order date would be announced.


Yeah, that's really a good sign of a solid and trustworthy longevity...

:insane: :crazy:

Quote
they paid more for these than the original units (as no more were being manufacturer the price went up).


Well, that's what happens when there isn't a properly functioning market in place. And this was *no* surprize, everyone (well, many of us at least, go back in time in the forum archives and look yourself) knew this would happen and warned about it (or "trolled" about it, depending on who you ask I guess).

Quote
The PA6T was Hyperion's preference. And, at the time, it was the best choice.


It was an obvious stillborn. It was dead, Jim! Old G4 Macs beats it in single core performance (which is the only thing that counts in an Amiga context) and the *cheapest* initial price was $600. And it was the best choice?

Quote
Um, just how much do you think it takes to keep a handful of engineers gainfully employed?
And, have you ever worked for a firm that built custom motherboards (because I did).
These figures are actually rather low.
Stated simply, you appear to have no concept how a business works, how costs are accounted for and handled, or the factors related to pricing a product.
And I assure you that you don't need the 16 credits of Economics I had to understand it (some people understand economics intuitively).
All costs have to be paid for.


Wow, I completely failed to get through to you above, didn't I? OK, I'll try again. My whole point above was that it simply isn't possible to think that way in a context of really heavy R&D efforts when there isn't even a market in place to actually carry the costs. And you certainly shouldn't need your 16 credits of Economics to understand that.

If the MorphOS team had properly priced all their work hours from 1999 up until v3.4 according to a proper salary of the senior level, western SW developers they are, and put that cost on the 2000+ MorphOS licenses that has been sold in grand total, what do you think the price of one MorphOS license key would have been? Certainly *not* 50-111 EUR at least, I can assure you that.

And had Fab priced all his work he put into Oddysey in a similar, proper manner, what do you think the price for selling the sources would have been? Certainly not 7500 EUR at least, that's a ridiculous sum if you think that way.

And had bPlan completely outsourced all their Pegasos 2 development to some external company with a work force to provide for, a lot of other over-head costs to cover, and a profit goal on top of that, instead of doing it *themselves*, do you think it would have been possible to introduce the Peg2 at ~$680 incl 15% VAT ("agressively priced" or not)? I'd dare to say: no way!

And had Jens Schönfeld turned to Varisys or whoever and said: "I have this idea of a custom Amiga/C64 floppy controller card, with a PCI interface in one end, and an old Zorro interface in the other so that you could just flip it depending on the computer, or even use the third interface that is an A1200 clock port, and it should have a C64 SID chip on board, and two old C64/Amiga digital joystick connectors, and an Amiga keyboard connector as well, and it should manage 1100 floppy disk formats, can you do that for me?", after all the work requied for that poor Varisys developer who got that on his table to even research what the hell a "Zorro" is, or an "A1200 clock port" is in the first place, then the actual design work on top of that, what do you think the end user price of a single Catweasel of a batch of a few hundred would have been? $1000? $2000? $3000? Would it be worthwhile? And the same with all the other individual computer's stuff. Like the "Commodore One", the C64 gear, the accellerators, etc?

And the stuff from DCE? The Mini Mig? OS4?

It's all the same, *everything* you see around you in this community, all HW, all SW, the OS's, even the forums and other web sites, follows the same laws and principles; the only reason to why it's here, why it's even possible at all, is because everyone behind those things have done the very opposite of what A-eon did, they created the stuff themselves. They built their own houses so to say. There is no market present here, so the very second you introduce market thinking into the equation with your 16 credits of economics, then is when the whole thing collapses with a big bang. Like mixing materia with anti-materia; they can't co-exist together, and the result of mixing them may not be very pleasant. Just like the X1000.

Acube makes their own HW AFAIK. That's the way to go. If you lack that ability, you could perhaps have found other ways. Like refurbishing second hand Macs, put the HW in a new case with your own sticker on it, and offer that machine for $500 or whatever. Entrepreneurship and management. In a non-existing market. Paying $1,200,000 for a second round of anti-materia will just create another bang, another abomination that will take the platform exactly nowhere (except perhaps backwards because of people leaving when they see no hope of a future anyway). And maybe the "market" for $3,000 OS4 systems is a bit saturated now? Maybe those who actually has the possibility to pay that kind of money for something like the X1000/OS4 has already done it?

Ask "vox", maybe he is up for a second run?

;)
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Offline nicholas

Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #80 on: December 19, 2013, 12:52:08 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;754705
Definitely sounds like something I would have said, a search on this forum will provide evidence :)

I think Athlonising the 68k would have been amazing, but it would have lead to similar problems that both intel and AMD have now... Lovely computing performance but at a terrible thermal and electrical cost :(

Though it would have given us a solid platform for development... Look at the new ARM v8 ISA, it's actually a bit nasty compared to the ARM v7, but it was developed after analyzing real code output from compilers and seeing how to get serious performance in a low energy budget :)

-edit- Forgot to mention that I have an ARM v8 chip here, and it is something else in performance... In a phone too!!! :-D


http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=478005&postcount=10 :)
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Offline Andre.Siegel

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #81 on: December 19, 2013, 01:12:03 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754684
OK, if that's true I stand corrected about the engineering costs, but it's still all "wrong", I mean, you can't spend $200,000 on engineering alone for a motherboard that can only sell in a hundred or so units (there was always an upper limit on available CPU's, even if they would reach out beyond the OS4 community)! And *then* another $600-$,1000 for the CPU alone. And *then* everything else on top of that!
If enough people bought the product to justify the release of a newer model, perhaps it was not so absurd afterall.

Either the initial investment was completely recouped or the investors did not mind spending money on a project that they enjoy. If someone is so successful in his or her primary career that he or she could run a non-profitable computer hardware business "just for fun", who are we to tell this person to not do it?


Quote
But had bPlan developed the motherboard "in-house" for "themselves" (read: their own business), they would probably have "priced" the development costs differently, right? Then the *monetary costs* wouldn't have been $100.000 USD any more, it would be more a matter of unpaid work hours and materials. Like Jens Schönfeld probably also does, or Fab when developing Odyssey. Had Fab put a market price tag on all the work hours of his time (mostly evenings and weekends probably, making them even more "expensive") he spent on Odyssey based on the hourly salary of a senior western SW developer, it would hardly be open sourced at just a mere €7,500 EUR. And MorphOS would cost a lot more than the current €50-€111 EUR for the same reason. I have built my own house "myself". Granted, I paid some carpenters, electricians, plummer's, etc to do some (quite a lot) of the work, but I did a very much of the work myself. I did never put a price on my own "development", I invested my own time into the project. Had I paid craftsmen to do every single thing, it would have been a lot more expensive, and even if I could have afforded it myself, the price I would have to ask at a sale in order to not make a loss when/if I sell it would probably have been *way out* of consumer's reach in my area, hence the house would have ended up unsalable. But if I'd sell my house at the current going prices in the area, I would probably make a nice little "profit", since I didn't price my own work/time, or priced it very low, compared to a "commercial carpenter". Whatever I get between what I paid for the fixed costs of having craftsmen doing some of the work, and the final end-user price the new house owner pays me, will be my "profit", the cost of labor isn't there, it was never priced. Or rather, it would have become priced by that "profit", *that's* what my labor turned out to be worth. I actually think most small/independent HW/SW entrepreneurs reason a bit the same way, and are happy with that...?
I find your entire argumentation to be deeply inconsistent. A few posts back you accused A-Eon of being too incompetent on the management level to ask more than one design house for price quotes, and now you accuse them of not treating it like a hobby and finding people willing to slave away for nothing so they can have a product to sell...

You completely underestimate the complexities of the hardware business. If someone finds a severe bug in the X1000 board design that causes data loss, Varisys are fully liable and they are big enough that A-Eon would have a good chance of receiving funds from them. If you have somebody design something for free, then you are fully liable for any issues with the design. If your hobby hardware designer made a mistake, "free" can turn into "extremely costly". Personally, I would feel very uneasy to pay a six figure sum for a production run of a hardware design that was done by some guy on a shoestring budget. When you are selling custom computer hardware, the designing phase is absolutely crucial and should receive sufficient attention and resources. (Even very experienced engineers can run into expensive hardware problems as the Articia S fiasco showed.)

As far as I can tell, ACube operate more or less the way you outlined. Yet, you are unhappy with their lower pricing as well. I think you have simply unrealistic expectations.


Quote
Ah, a "price ring" cartel, you mean?;)
Just regular product positioning based on internal market segmentation analysis.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #82 on: December 19, 2013, 01:21:59 PM »
Quote from: Andre.Siegel;754711

I find your entire argumentation to be deeply inconsistent..

You completely underestimate the complexities of the hardware business...

I think you have simply unrealistic expectations...


Thanks Andre,
Sorry for the partial quotes.
Good retort.

And I don't need to make an overly worded response as your "You completely underestimate the complexities of the hardware business" is enough.
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Offline OlafS3

Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #83 on: December 19, 2013, 01:48:14 PM »
What TMHG propably means it is simply crazy to build custom hardware based on PPC in 2013. It was perhaps a good choice in the nighties but today it is completely unrealistic. Propably (from my point of view despite the efforts needed) MorphOS team will change to ARM or X86/X64 too. AROS is already there. Hyperion and e-on will stick on PPC forever because expecially Hyperion has no resources for the needed change and they would expect someone else to pay for the port (what nobody will do, propably not even Trevor). What the choice of processor... I am self-employed and have to do with small to medium companies, for a company it is critical to easily replace broken hardware, one reason why this hobby system would have no chance to be sold to professionals (besides of price, missing software and so on).

Hardware creation (including needed drivers) is expensive and complex, one reason why custom hardware is not competitive today. Custom hardware only makes sense if it offers real customer value, X1000 or similar does not offer that (at least for the vast majority of potential buyers) and is much too expensive (and "much" is here the polite phrase). I had contact to a number of former amiga-developers (mostly former AmigaOS users) who gave up after the old hardware broke and were not very happy about the strategy and direction. It is a pity that people leave the platform completely instead of changing to MorphOS or AROS.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 01:53:51 PM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #84 on: December 19, 2013, 03:59:51 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;754716
It is a pity that people leave the platform completely instead of changing to MorphOS or AROS.

I think everyone that is likely to leave fled long ago.

And the problem marketing new solutions to the diehards is that its never going to have hardware compatibility.
Even the directions the Amiga would have taken had it survived would not have preserved that.
So, a few of us have moved to MorphOS, and eventually that will morph again shedding its compatibility.
Amiga OS4 users can straggle on pretending they are still using an Amiga.
And AROS users can live comfortably acknowledging what many deny, that your best Amiga platform is a PC.
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Offline nicholas

Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #85 on: December 19, 2013, 04:40:02 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;754719
I think everyone that is likely to leave fled long ago.

And the problem marketing new solutions to the diehards is that its never going to have hardware compatibility.
Even the directions the Amiga would have taken had it survived would not have preserved that.
So, a few of us have moved to MorphOS, and eventually that will morph again shedding its compatibility.
Amiga OS4 users can straggle on pretending they are still using an Amiga.
And AROS users can live comfortably acknowledging what many deny, that your best Amiga platform is a PC.

I'd add that the best Amiga platform is a PC with Amithlon Jim.

Hopefully ARIX can fill the same shoes and more.
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Offline Andre.Siegel

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #86 on: December 19, 2013, 04:44:36 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;754716
What TMHG propably means it is simply crazy to build custom hardware based on PPC in 2013.
In this particular discussion thread, this was not his argument. In response to people discussing manufacturing in Italy, he specifically referenced the Pegasos 2 mainboard and implicitly put its pricing in relation to Acube and A-EON's offerings.

However, he mistakenly assumed that the Pegasos 2 price included VAT which was not accurate. The order page at pegasosppc.com specifically stated that taxes were not included: Web Archive

Also, if you care to compare 2003 prices to 2013 prices in a meaningful way, you actually have to adjust for inflation. 680 USD in 2003 equals 861 USD in 2013 (26.7% cumulative rate of inflation). That would be 630 EUR which is just a mere 50 EUR less than the most expensive mainboard listed in Acube's webshop where prices range between 270 and 679 EUR (excluding taxes).

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I am self-employed and have to do with small to medium companies, for a company it is critical to easily replace broken hardware, one reason why this hobby system would have no chance to be sold to professionals (besides of price, missing software and so on).
Frankly, general professional use is out of the scrope for the discussed operating systems in any case. These are technical solutions for hobby use or, as I like to say, "Recreational Computing". They are the computer equivalent of quad bikes. Highly impractical for daily commuting in many areas, but some people greatly enjoy to ride one on weekends nevertheless.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 04:51:10 PM by Andre.Siegel »
 

Offline spirantho

Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #87 on: December 19, 2013, 05:51:14 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;754716
What TMHG propably means it is simply crazy to build custom hardware based on PPC in 2013.


Why?

Acube and A-Eon seem to be doing ok. Business is about finding a niche where demand exists. They have both proven that demand does exist by their continued development of new boards.

I for one would rather pay more for something special than be tied to commodity hardware. My Amiga to me is a hobby - a hobby is not always about being cost-efficient.
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Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #88 on: December 19, 2013, 06:16:20 PM »
Quote from: Andre.Siegel;754722
...These are technical solutions for hobby use or, as I like to say, "Recreational Computing". They are the computer equivalent of quad bikes. Highly impractical for daily commuting in many areas, but some people greatly enjoy to ride one on weekends nevertheless.

Fabulous way of putting it.
"They are the computer equivalent of quad bikes"

Yes, it would be silly to compare an X1000 or a SAM to a mainstream computer and it will only torture the thinker to try.
This is supposed to be fun.
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #89 on: December 19, 2013, 08:36:09 PM »
Quote from: Andre.Siegel;754711
If enough people bought the product to justify the release of a newer model, perhaps it was not so absurd afterall.


Depends on the perspective and POV I suppose; if you like Trevor are satisfied with sales in the range of 200-300 units in the products entire life span, then I guess you're right. If you on the other hand expected it to be an evolution of the platform, a stepping stone towards re-establishing the "Amiga" as something more than a very tiny and constantly diminishing group of people that are counted in the hundreds in total (and split in several fractions on top of that), then I think it's very absurd. Trevor took on the role of providing a HW future for the platform, and his answer to the problem was the X1000. And it has meant nothing at all to the platforms evolution. It probably scared more people away from the platform than a complete absence of new HW would, because then there can at least be hope and dreams of a future, but when this was touted to be the next step in the platforms evolution it effectively crushed all hope of a realistic, sustainable future in many peoples minds, I'm sure of that. We are talking about a 2005 performance level computer that essentially is more expensive than Apple's latest power horse (with rather extreme specs, that also has the substantial Apple brand tax included), it was from the beginning designed on a dead-end CPU and it has specs that nobody (not even Trevor) knows the purpose of. How is this not absurd?

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Either the initial investment was completely recouped or the investors did not mind spending money on a project that they enjoy. If someone is so successful in his or her primary career that he or she could run a non-profitable computer hardware business "just for fun", who are we to tell this person to not do it?


Trevor could commission Varisys to design a red/white ball-shaped PCB with pink propellers in titan all over it and other pointless features, performance from the last decade and sell it for $5000 to boing-ball loyals (who would definitely buy it, at least a hundred or so, as long as it's "the real", drivers be damned), it's a free world. But it would be very absurd, as would it be if these things wouldn't be allowed for discussion, when it's a matter of the direction of the platform evolution. Sure, you may be of the opinion that insanely priced PPC HW with unneeded features is the way forward for the platform, and of course you can advocate that all over the Internet. But I'm of a different opinion, and I reserve the rights to express my opinions as well.

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I find your entire argumentation to be deeply inconsistent. A few posts back you accused A-Eon of being too incompetent on the management level to ask more than one design house for price quotes, and now you accuse them of not treating it like a hobby and finding people willing to slave away for nothing so they can have a product to sell...


What, people with skills doing their own product development work in-house, instead of paying other companies to do it for them, automatically equals to "hobby" or "slavery" now? This is how it's done in small firms in every industry, everywhere!

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You completely underestimate the complexities of the hardware business.


No I don't think so, i'm actually quite certain it's indeed extremely complex, but that wasn't even the point.

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If someone finds a severe bug in the X1000 board design that causes data loss, Varisys are fully liable and they are big enough that A-Eon would have a good chance of receiving funds from them. If you have somebody design something for free, then you are fully liable for any issues with the design. If your hobby hardware designer made a mistake, "free" can turn into "extremely costly".


Take an insurance policy like everyone else, if you are worried about these things...?

Other than that, from a consumer perspective, I think Genesi/bPlan (who had their HW competence in-house) managed the Articia-S catastrophe *a lot* better than Eyetech did (who didn't have any in-house HW competence, and chose to buy everything (like development and manufacturing) from external entities).

The difference was significant.

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Personally, I would feel very uneasy to pay a six figure sum for a production run of a hardware design that was done by some guy on a shoestring budget. When you are selling custom computer hardware, the designing phase is absolutely crucial and should receive sufficient attention and resources. (Even very experienced engineers can run into expensive hardware problems as the Articia S fiasco showed.)


As the Articia-S thing showed, a HW development company that actually have competence in HW development, isn't perhaps all that bad? Maybe even preferable, yes?

And again, this is the only way of developing R&D heavy products for a practically non-existent micro markets. I'm not talking about hobby or slavery. But paying $1,200,000 for developing a product for a few hundred potential customers can only end one way.

---

Look, of course anyone is free to waste his money in any way he/she likes (as long as it's legal and preferrably ethical), but here we are talking about someone who (in the absence of official platform dvelopment/management) has taken on the role of managing the future evolution of the platform, at least HW wise. This concerns everyone that has any kind of emotional attachment to the platform, and everyone should be allowed to speak their views on this.
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)