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AuthorTopic: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code  (Read 2730 times)

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Offline nicholas

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2013, 09:49:22 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;754085
Off topic:


Would you by any change have ALL the dependencies to compile the original Dopus Magellan sources with SASC6? I've tried a few times and failed.

I can have a look for you.

I've never tried to compile it though, what does it need?
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline Thorham

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2013, 09:01:13 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;754100
I can have a look for you.

Thanks, but forget I asked. All I really want to do is fix the file and disk sizes for anything greater than 2^32-1. It's not a big deal.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2013, 10:43:57 AM »
Quote from: Thorham;754118
Thanks, but forget I asked. All I really want to do is fix the file and disk sizes for anything greater than 2^32-1. It's not a big deal.

Ok, perhaps you could ask Itix or Kas1e if they have fixed that issue in their GCC port of Magellan? (I think they are working on it, can't remember who else is though.)
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline superfrog76

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2013, 05:21:24 AM »
Thanks a lot for all your reply....since the post was moved I was not able to find it anymore LOL :)

I have a 030/50, but VB is out of the question honestly...heard of blitzbasic, but I am not sure how it actually works, compared to Cpp and C; for sure Assembly is the quickest, but also the hardest to learn.

The use of Win UAE is quite creative, but goes out of the scope of my purpose of using a real miggy :) I would not like to touch the PC not even to run the emulator...that's the whole point of me buying a dedicated Amiga machine ;) Independently if it is cross compiling or not; work on an emulator is pure madness, when you are planning to deploy on real hardware.

I work on Mac with iPhone, and they have a simulator (not an emulator), which works decently for quick prototyping, but then I work on the device, just to avoid any kind of trouble. One thing is to run code, another is to write and debug code on it...you just look for pain if you want to work on a emulated platform honestly, when you have available the real one ;)

So boiling down: I have already Storm C installed...what else should I put on the miggy? And I need to be sure that they don't hit each other's toes :)

Probably I need an Assembly 68K application (which of the many?), and a C environment, so I can cover C++, C and ASM?

Someone suggested me to use E; but I really have no will to learn yet another language...so far I know 8 of them and I think that there is enough war going on in my neurons LOL.
 

Offline Leffmann

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2013, 08:55:14 AM »
If the assembler that comes with Storm C isn't good enough then try Barfly. Barfly consists of an assembler and a debugger, both of which are probably the best you can run directly on Amiga.

SAS/C has a good IDE with both an editor and debugger, covers C89 and some basic C++, and its assembler and linker are perfectly fine.

There's also vbcc, a portable C compiler for C89 and C99, which comes with a really powerful assembler and linker.

Stay away from all-in-one-total-assembly-experience programs like Devpac, SEKA, Maxon Assembler, ASM-One with derivatives etc. They are really, really great for testing and learning, but for actually writing programs they only let you dig a hole in the ground for yourself.
 

Offline SamuraiCrow

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2013, 09:30:56 AM »
Quote from: Leffmann;754618
There's also vbcc, a portable C compiler for C89 and C99, which comes with a really powerful assembler and linker.


VASM and VLink are the names of the powerful assembler and linker.  Also, if you run across PhxAss and PhxLink, they are Kickstart 1.3 compatible predecessors of VASM and VLink that were written in closed-source assembly themselves while VASM and VLink are written in C and compiled with VBCC.
 

Offline Thorham

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2013, 04:19:59 PM »
Quote from: Leffmann;754618
There's also vbcc, a portable C compiler for C89 and C99, which comes with a really powerful assembler and linker.
Last time I checked (some years ago) VBCC was really slow on 68030s :( VASM is very slow, too :( These are sadly of little use on actual hardware.

Quote from: Leffmann;754618
Stay away from all-in-one-total-assembly-experience programs like Devpac, SEKA, Maxon Assembler, ASM-One with derivatives etc. They are really, really great for testing and learning, but for actually writing programs they only let you dig a hole in the ground for yourself.
The OP does write that they want to learn assembly language, so those integrated environments should be very useful. Can't harm to state that their usefulness is limited after learning, of course ;)
 

Offline Leffmann

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2013, 06:34:55 PM »
Actually I think the whole VBCC suite runs perfectly fine on a real Amiga. The trick is to use a proper build system, and avoid putting all your code in a single massive file. Rebuilding the entire project every time you've changed just a single line of code is sure to give you dramatical build times.

The Amiga distribution on Frank Wille's site is compiled with VBCC using low or no optimization settings. If you build the tools from source using f.ex. GCC with high optimization you'll get faster executables. Making the tools resident in memory can speed things up as well.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2013, 07:43:03 PM »
Quote
i have a 030/50, but vb is out of the question


vbcc !=vb ;)
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline superfrog76

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2013, 12:49:34 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;754731
vbcc !=vb ;)


DOH :) have no idea :) The fact that I use a all in one solution, like visual studio, totally blind me about what is in fact the actual linker, compiler and so on...I just write code; got a lot to learn :)

So I think that I will settle for ASM one and devpac as ASM dev tools; while I will have Storm for C++ and SAS/C for regular C.

I am tempted to try blitzbasic, but after learning Assembler thou :)

So, once I learn, what should I use for ASM? Since the ones that Leffman mentioned are not good for anything other than learning?
 

Offline ChaosLord

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2013, 04:10:06 AM »
If you are planning on debugging your software then I recommend SASC since it has the best source level debugger by far.

If you are just going to code bug-ridden nonsense then you can just use anything, even cross-compile.  Protip1: don't cross-compile.  Protip2: Using WinUAE is not cross-compiling.

As for Asm, the Amiga has many good assemblers: Devpac, Asm-One, Barfly, PhxAss and probably others I forgot about.

All the Amiga's dev software is tiny.  So just install everything.

Trying to interface asm to any GCC-derived compiler is going to drive you insane and raise your bloodpressure.  You could die of a stroke.  We don't want that.  So I recommend any normal C compiler that cooperates with asm, such as SASC for sure.  But I think VBCC and DICE cooperate in a friendly manner too (I just can't remember for sure).

I have used a few different Amiga C compilers + read the instruction manuals to a few others.  I have used at least 4 different assemblers.
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline ChaosLord

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2013, 04:21:41 AM »
Quote from: Leffmann;754618

Stay away from all-in-one-total-assembly-experience programs like Devpac, SEKA, Maxon Assembler, ASM-One with derivatives etc. They are really, really great for testing and learning, but for actually writing programs they only let you dig a hole in the ground for yourself.


Really tremendously harsh thing to say.  I don't even understand what it is you are trying to say.  Are you trying to say that nobody should ever use asm ever?  Or are you saying that nobody should use those specific assemblers?

Which assemblers are good enuff to earn the Leffmann seal of approval?


As for me I have coded many asm routines in Devpac and AsmOne and they were totally ok.  Not 1000% perfect or anything, but no software package is.  They were completely usable and friendly and got the job done.  Many ppl say that PhxAss is a lot better but I never got around to using that one :(  

If I was the OP I would install PhxAss, BarFly, Devpac and AsmOne.

But if I was ME then I would just be lazy and keep using what I have used for centuries: Devpac and A68k (or whatever that other PD one is called).
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline Thorham

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2013, 12:41:07 PM »
Quote from: Leffmann;754729
Actually I think the whole VBCC suite runs perfectly fine on a real Amiga. The trick is to use a proper build system, and avoid putting all your code in a single massive file. Rebuilding the entire project every time you've changed just a single line of code is sure to give you dramatical build times.

I'm talking about compiling a 'Hello world!' program with VBCC on a 50 mhz 68030. It was too slow. Maybe the current version is faster, it was a quite a while ago.

Quote from: ChaosLord;754777
Really tremendously harsh thing to say.  I don't even understand what it is you are trying to say.  Are you trying to say that nobody should ever use asm ever?  Or are you saying that nobody should use those specific assemblers?

He's saying you shouldn't use those integrated environment assemblers for large projects, because you can only compile the whole source code all at once. If your code is split up in parts, then with the right assembler you only have to assemble the part that you made changes in, similar to multiple file C code.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2013, 01:50:03 PM »
Quote from: superfrog76;754746
DOH :) have no idea :) The fact that I use a all in one solution, like visual studio, totally blind me about what is in fact the actual linker, compiler and so on...I just write code; got a lot to learn :)

So I think that I will settle for ASM one and devpac as ASM dev tools; while I will have Storm for C++ and SAS/C for regular C.

I am tempted to try blitzbasic, but after learning Assembler thou :)

So, once I learn, what should I use for ASM? Since the ones that Leffman mentioned are not good for anything other than learning?


This is a good place to start:

http://coppershade.org/
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline Thorham

Re: Suggestions for programs to use on real amiga to code
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2013, 03:32:53 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;754794
This is a good place to start:

http://coppershade.org/

They would need to choose if they want to start with hardware programming or OS programming. In my opinion it's better to start with the OS. It's easier, especially for things like simple 'Hello world!' programs that you want to start with.