VERY RARE - FA or Buy It Now - Ralph Babel's "The Amiga Guru Book"!!!

[nicholas]

Here we disagree.

Posting such links further demonstrates to authors including Ralph, that there are plenty who will promote and use digital versions that infringe on their copyright so there is no incentive for them to revise or author new works of value.

If there were a new, updated edition of such volumes I guarantee the market for the first edition would evaporate immediately, but not when there would likely also be a scanned digital version online of the new edition!

100% of the books I posted links to are now out of print.

If you want people to learn how to code for Amigas there is no better way than to give them free documentation.

I could sell my RKRM's, Guru Book and various other Amiga coding books but the main benificary of those sales would be me; certainly not the wider community nor the original authors.

[sprocket]

100% of the books I posted links to are now out of print.

If you want people to learn how to code for Amigas there is no better way than to give them free documentation.

I could sell my RKRM's, Guru Book and various other Amiga coding books but the main benificary of those sales would be me; certainly not the wider community nor the original authors.

..and when you "give away" your own personal copies when you're done with them, especially if the works is 'out of print', and you would benefit the community, and the person you gave them to would likely appreciate them as they were not easy to come by.

..but when you encourage free access to infringed digital copies, you make certain no one will ever do a reprint, and inhibit the necessity for a new edition.

[nicholas]

..and when you "give away" your own personal copies when you're done with them, especially if the works is 'out of print', and you would benefit the community, and the person you gave them to would likely appreciate them as they were not easy to come by.

..but when you encourage free access to infringed digital copies, you make certain no one will ever do a reprint, and inhibit the necessity for a new edition.

Bollox.

[nicholas]

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=amiga+filetype:[b][/b]pdf

[danbeaver]

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=amiga+filetype:[b][/b]pdf

How many of those authors expressly stated displeasure with their works being published on the Internet as Ralph Babel did?

[Minuous]

but when you encourage free access to infringed digital copies, you make certain no one will ever do a reprint, and inhibit the necessity for a new edition.

He has already stated he will not be doing a reprint or a new edition. So whether digital copies are available is completely irrelevant.

[SACC-guy]

So you expect those who've collected and maintained hardware since the eighties or nineties to sell their stuff for what they paid for it?

M- Yes, I would hope so.

So you expect those who have worthwhile software with registration keys and any documentation to pass it along for what they paid for it?

M- Yes, as I would.

I have no need to "show you something" or to show anyone anything.

M- Yes, You're quite right.


As for Ralph, I've owned 2 copies of this book over the years, this being the second and last one I've had.  At some point, Ralph got the percentage of each that he had calculated based on his original printing.  Do I owe him something now? I owe him precisely what he stipulated in publishing a copyright book... that I won't copy it and reduce his ability to sell or revise it for his benefit.  I have no intention of infringing on his copyright.

M- Very correct!

If any of those whining for lower prices on valuable older Amiga items really want something, perhaps standing against piracy and infringement and actually valuing things enough to give something for them when they want them would result in a dynamic Amiga market with lots of users again and that volume would lower all prices.

You're mistaken, I not whining.
I have a different view from you as to pricing.

Remember, it's people like me that allow you to "buy low, sell high"
or maybe it's just the age of ebay...

M

[sprocket]

So you expect those who've collected and maintained hardware since the eighties or nineties to sell their stuff for what they paid for it?

M- Yes, I would hope so.

So you expect those who have worthwhile software with registration keys and any documentation to pass it along for what they paid for it?

M- Yes, as I would.

I have no need to "show you something" or to show anyone anything.

M- Yes, You're quite right.


As for Ralph, I've owned 2 copies of this book over the years, this being the second and last one I've had.  At some point, Ralph got the percentage of each that he had calculated based on his original printing.  Do I owe him something now? I owe him precisely what he stipulated in publishing a copyright book... that I won't copy it and reduce his ability to sell or revise it for his benefit.  I have no intention of infringing on his copyright.

M- Very correct!

If any of those whining for lower prices on valuable older Amiga items really want something, perhaps standing against piracy and infringement and actually valuing things enough to give something for them when they want them would result in a dynamic Amiga market with lots of users again and that volume would lower all prices.

You're mistaken, I not whining.
I have a different view from you as to pricing.

Remember, it's people like me that allow you to "buy low, sell high"
or maybe it's just the age of ebay...

M

you expect people to sell their items for what they paid for it?

Well, in many cases that would mean prices far higher for many items than what anyone would pay!

There are those with differing opinions, yes.
..and my use of the word "whining" doesn't apply to everyone with an opinion differing from my own, but only those who seem to think simply repeating their want for free or infringed stuff is going to make it happen.

As for buying low and selling high, if you've checked the listing you'll know it has ended and I got just about what I expect, and within a few dollars of what I had in it (as it is the 2nd copy I bought used myself some time ago, as I mentioned).

I don't sell things to make a killing.  I can't believe anyone makes a killing selling Amiga items.

I'll say this.  For those times when I've made an high margin above what I paid for something, I've dumped, given or gotten a fraction for so much more!  That's what happens when a community shrinks, developers leave and items lose their value because a few think it's okay to copy, scan, crack, or otherwise dupe without regard.

On balance, no one really "sells high".  Everyone loses.

Sometimes it seems to me many see ebay listings with a high 'buy it now' price, or what they consider a high starting bid price, and assume you're trying to gouge others.
Do a search for the item in closed listings and find out what that same item sold for within the last 2 yrs and the going price may be precisely what someone else paid for it.

I've had Amiga stuff since 1987, have been a member of multiple users groups and chair of one for a short period, I've given, swapped, sold and donated stuff, and assisted in organizing one commercial show for Amiga vendors.  I've put my time in.  I have no patience for so many of these folks who had no idea what an Amiga was before 2000.

While I've met many interesting and wonderful folks and learned a lot in this community, I've also found several folks who've gone out of their way to make it a tiring experience as they illustrated frustrating, short sighted and damaging behavior to the community and the platform as it has struggled over the last 15 yrs.

[danbeaver]

Sadly, this is THE forum to meet such a group as you have described; those adolescents still fingering everybody who grew up and became responsible adults striving to support their families and THIS community in a nurturing and positive way.

[SACC-guy]

you expect people to sell their items for what they paid for it?

M- No, At most what they paid, usually half, it is used and maybe twenty years old.

Well, in many cases that would mean prices far higher for many items than what anyone would pay!

M- So it won't sell, that's okay.

There are those with differing opinions, yes.

M- Great

..and my use of the word "whining" doesn't apply to everyone with an opinion differing from my own, but only those who seem to think simply repeating their want for free or infringed stuff is going to make it happen.

M- Can't speak to that...

I don't sell things to make a killing.  I can't believe anyone makes a killing selling Amiga items.

M- Oh, yes, lots.

I'll say this.  For those times when I've made an high margin above what I paid for something, I've dumped, given or gotten a fraction for so much more!  That's what happens when a community shrinks, developers leave and items lose their value because a few think it's okay to copy, scan, crack, or otherwise dupe without regard.

On balance, no one really "sells high".  Everyone loses.

M- so in order to balance, one must maximize return?


Sometimes it seems to me many see ebay listings with a high 'buy it now' price, or what they consider a high starting bid price, and assume you're trying to gouge others.
Do a search for the item in closed listings and find out what that same item sold for within the last 2 yrs and the going price may be precisely what someone else paid for it.

M- I don't consider this the "going" price, as you know.

I've had Amiga stuff since 1987, have been a member of multiple users groups and chair of one for a short period, I've given, swapped, sold and donated stuff, and assisted in organizing one commercial show for Amiga vendors.  I've put my time in.

M- Me too, my first A1000 was Jan1986

  I have no patience for so many of these folks who had no idea what an Amiga was before 2000.

M- Not good, we must include all the generations (as we were included)

While I've met many interesting and wonderful folks and learned a lot in this community, I've also found several folks who've gone out of their way to make it a tiring experience as they illustrated frustrating, short sighted and damaging behavior to the community and the platform as it has struggled over the last 15 yrs.

The net is not a good place to really understand people... words don't seen to send how we mean them.
For all we know, everyone is a 70 year old day trader...

[sprocket]

On balance, no one really "sells high". Everyone loses.

M- so in order to balance, one must maximize return?


Sometimes it seems to me many see ebay listings with a high 'buy it now' price, or what they consider a high starting bid price, and assume you're trying to gouge others.
Do a search for the item in closed listings and find out what that same item sold for within the last 2 yrs and the going price may be precisely what someone else paid for it.

M- I don't consider this the "going" price, as you know.

I'm not personally aiming at any sort of balance.  When you list an item on ebay you take your best guess at how to position it.

The market decides.  The value is based on what the buyers think it's worth, not the seller.

The "going price" is what any given sale turns out to be.  I've seen this particular book sell for more than $220 in years past.  At present, it seems like that demand has been diminished by the availability of the digital versions.  Some seem to still want an actual paper book.

The benefit to the community is that anything continues to have any value.

The net is not a good place to really understand people... words don't seen to send how we mean them.
For all we know, everyone is a 70 year old day trader...

If it were common that used Amiga items were bringing huge speculative returns on the scale of securities speculators you'd be seeing a lot more stuff listed on ebay.

[SACC-guy]

I'm not personally aiming at any sort of balance.  When you list an item on ebay you take your best guess at how to position it.

The market decides.  The value is based on what the buyers think it's worth, not the seller.

M- Only if It starts at $1. You can't bid lower than the seller sets... but you know that.
 
The "going price" is what any given sale turns out to be.  I've seen this particular book sell for more than $220 in years past.  At present, it seems like that demand has been diminished by the availability of the digital versions.  Some seem to still want an actual paper book.

M- This still isn't the price as I see it. But you already know that too.

The benefit to the community is that anything continues to have any value.

If it were common that used Amiga items were bringing huge speculative returns on the scale of securities speculators you'd be seeing a lot more stuff listed on ebay.

M- see that last line was meant to have a grin... but I didn't  make it clear...

I think it's fine to see what the buyers will run up to and enjoy your return.

[danbeaver]

The net is not a good place to really understand people... words don't seen [sic] to send how [sic] we mean them.
For all we know, everyone is a 70 year old day trader...

This thread began as a notification of a sale of an intellectually valuable and rare book for sale to the Amiga community; it quickly degraded into the merits of ignoring intellectual property rights, whether an author has any rights at all after the end of a publication run, whether the loss of those rights can hurt the community at large, and if the second sale of an item has value to the owner or the author.  Several individuals showed contempt of not only establish "rules of behavior" meant to lessen the effects the financial but also intellectual loss of property, and scorned those who adopted the "rules" as "laws."  Several individuals with secondary agenda's in their bylines, lost credibility of their proposed values, and others made flat inflammatory comments.

Reams of paper and electrons have been utilized for exactly the purpose of elucidating what one means in their writing over the past four millennia, and suffice it to say that this forum or the internet at large removes ones ability to be clear and concise is disconcerting.

[nicholas]

Sadly, this is THE forum to meet such a group as you have described; those adolescents still fingering everybody who grew up and became responsible adults striving to support their families and THIS community in a nurturing and positive way.

Providing free documentation of books that will never be printed again benefits the community in a much more "nurturing and positive way" than selling second hand copies of these books will ever do.

The fact that you can't see this says more about you than it does we "adolescents".

[sprocket]

I'm not personally aiming at any sort of balance.  When you list an item on ebay you take your best guess at how to position it.

The market decides.  The value is based on what the buyers think it's worth, not the seller.

M- Only if It starts at $1. You can't bid lower than the seller sets... but you know that.
 

No, you can't open by bidding lower than the seller's set starting price, BUT you CAN simply not bid at all.

I've seen and listed MANY auctions or 'buy it now' listings where the item ultimately didn't sell.  Sellers have the option of relisting and lowering their price, waiting and listing later, or simply deciding the market isn't there for that item.

There is no requirement for anyone to bid at all.

That some do demonstrates the rarity of the item, and/or how much the buyer wants the item.  That's the reason ebay exists.

You can argue with the market's perception, or that you've been outbid, or that the person who has it thinks it's worth more than you do, but THAT doesn't change the fact that until all of our property becomes community property none of that matters and that isn't how it works.

[sprocket]

Providing free documentation of books that will never be printed again benefits the community in a much more "nurturing and positive way" than selling second hand copies of these books will ever do.

The fact that you can't see this says more about you than it does we "adolescents".

I don't object to product documentation that has been abandoned and has no real intrinsic value, but was only originally intended to help you use software or some add on hardware.

Anyone who does this is still taking a chance, and the original publisher has the right to police their copyright and come after you.


When someone was considering releasing a revised version of THEIR work (Babel) as late as a few years ago, and some self indulgent nit decides their opinion to post a digital version online, and cheats everyone out of a new version by removing the incentive to the author is okay and they delude themselves into thinking they're doing a public service.... well, that's just perverse thinking.


If these tactics you're so fond of worked so well, why isn't the Amiga platform the current dominant platform?  Why isn't the community a vibrant, creative mix of hundreds of thousands of people?  Why is it a muddy mix of very few without any clear direction for the platform to recover the position it once had?

pffft!

Be serious.  You're not doing a public service.  You're telling yourself what you're doing is of value when no one will remember what you did.  If you crack and post you've broken a contract with every author and developer who has ever published anything.  If you simply point people at digital versions, you're encouraging that behavior.  If you use infringed work, you're encouraging that behavior.

The people who are likely to be remembered are the original authors, the original designers, those who put time in and ran users groups, those who put time & resources in to stage conventions.  ...and those people are not likely to ever return to a market where their time and expertise is no longer respected by the market honoring the contract of their copyright.

I'm done with this thread.

My listing is over and I hope the person who bought the book gets a lot out of it.

Until next time... If I have something to list again I'm sure there will be plenty more people questioning my starting price, or if I'm even entitled to ANY monies for something I actually paid for (used or new), as well as my motives and how selling used items isn't supportive of the market.  

Guess what?  I could care less what you think, and you're not persuading anyone to your point of view.

Anyone who owns or has owned hardware, software or reference deserves, at least, some level of consideration for not simply tossing it in the recycle.

That they also get to enjoy these sorts of wonderful exchanges (tongue firmly in cheek) questioning their intentions (which seem mostly to be interested in getting something for nothing and not nearly as morally superior as they are framed) is tiring, insulting, tedious and damaging to the community and anyone who might want a good selection of used items to be available, as well as any potential new items.