VERY RARE - FA or Buy It Now - Ralph Babel's "The Amiga Guru Book"!!!

[SACC-guy]

@dan

No I buy my food at the farmers market. At whatever they charge if I can afford it.

You can make lots of samples of making money... and I don't begrudge profit to grow and invest, etc

I try to live a balanced life and not make any "killings" in the market (of any sort)

If I wanted to sell this book, I would ask no more than I paid, but most likey half as it would be used (read)

[vidarh]

Ah, back to blaming the victim, sad really.

So copyright laws only exist when they are convenient to you morals; a copy for sale is right in front of you, so there is no reason to steal one!

You lose all respect from me the moment you equate copyright infringement and theft. Copyright law exists explicitly because theft by definition can not have occurred if the victim still has the the supposedly stolen item in their possession.

As such, in its modern form, copyright is explicitly an *exchange*: Society grants certain additional protections that does not follow from any concept of natural law. These additional protections are granted temporarily as part of a bargain to encourage the creation of more works.  These restrictions are directly and intentionally limitations on free speech, on the assumption that these temporary restrictions will enrich society as a whole.

If a work is withdrawn from the market, society gets no benefits from maintaining that bargain - on the contrary, in that case enforcing copyright impoverishes society.

It is certainly "convenient" morally to believe that if someone is not acting in accordance with the goal of copyright, we should not care all that much about being bound by it either. And indeed, in many jurisdictions, this is recognized by copyright law implicitly or explicitly: Non-commercial copying in cases where the original work is unavailable is most places treated very lightly exactly because there can not realistically be said to be a commercial loss if the work is not available for sale.

The US is the most notable exception with its massive punishments for statutory infringement.

But there is thus no universal agreement that copying a work that has been taken off the market is bad.

(Note: I still, as I've pointed out, believe Babel was in his right to make the decisions he did, and I don't know whether or not it is correct that the book was sold out and that he refused further printings of the original version or not; but I also won't condemn anyone for copying his works *now* when he has shown a total disinterest in trying to make any further money from the work)

[Trev]

First-sale doctrine or no, if you support Ralph's position, don't buy secondhand copies of his book. He prefers to see his work--and whatever knowledge it might have contained--lost to time.

[AndreasM]

If I'm not mistaken I believe Ralph sold all of the copies of this book that he had printed.  If he wanted to sell more he should have printed more and I am sure they would have sold just as the first printing did.  He is the one that put people in the position of wanting a scanned copy.  So yes, I believe Ralph created this monster and then didn't like what he had created and chose to blame the community.  It would be a whole different story if he was sitting on a stack of unsold books but that is not the reality.  How can you complain about illegal copies when there are no legal copies to be had?

we have work at a new version and reprint of the book. this info was public. some days before the book-release spread the users a scanned version of the old book and damaged with that the new release.

i think i dont must say any more...

about to sell a original book, second hand. i dont see here the problem.

[hishamk]

You lose all respect from me the moment you equate copyright infringement and theft. Copyright law exists explicitly because theft by definition can not have occurred if the victim still has the the supposedly stolen item in their possession.

You make an interesting point for sure. Perhaps people are 'breaking the [copyright] law' by copying currently protected material. They are not stealing it by your argument since it is still possessed by the owner. Perhaps 'don't steal music/movies' sounds more forceful than 'don't break copyright law'. I'm not saying you're either wrong or right, though I would like to examine this a bit further as an intellectual exercise.

The point is that the law still bears force even if the owner decides to never release his material (unless he/she himself indicates so otherwise, or the legally specified number of years of copyright protection has passed).

As such, there is no justification to break the protection granted to Ralph at this point in time. You may not cause pecuniary damages to him, though you have broken the law, and in doing so, disenfranchised Ralph from his legally provided right to keep possession of his work. Whether this possession is morally correct or not, is not a question of legality. If Ralph discovers a cure for cancer, writes it up in a book, and never publishes the book, keeping a copy for himself that gets stolen and posted somewhere, then the only thing to save face that can be done is for the *laws to change*, perhaps making an exception that certain life-enriching works must be distributed by the author or granted free to society if such distribution is non-existent. I'm not sure this applies to a technical book about a vintage system

As you mention, some countries take non-commercial copying of unavailable works lightly. This may seem harmless, until we realize that in the case of Ralph, you are basically going against the wishes of the owner, who had stressed his position about his out-of-print work being copied freely. Remember that he is a *living author* who has/had the intention of building on his earlier works to provide a new commercially available product (the new edition).

[sprocket]

@sprocket

I don't know you...I'm in a different camp when it comes to a second hand sale.

IF you bought this book at retail for $60, sell it for that and Ralph gets no money.

Sell it at your starting bid and double your money 60 back plus 60 = 120...
and Ralph still gets no money.

IF someone pays you buy now of $200...GREAT for you, Ralph still gets no money.

IF you really want to show us something. Promise at the least 50% to Ralph.

Just MHO,
M

So you expect those who've collected and maintained hardware since the eighties or nineties to sell their stuff for what they paid for it?

So you expect those who have worthwhile software with registration keys and any documentation to pass it along for what they paid for it?

Yes, this is a book.  The author made what he could, and I'm not currently in touch with him.  I have, like many, contacted him in the past to encourage a new edition, but found him to be less than receptive to any new edition or the old edition.

As a book, it is both an informational resource, and a hard asset.

I paid more than cover price when I acquired this second hand.  The reason this book has a higher than cover price is both because the content is substantial, AND because as time has passed the book is more rare as copies have gone to recycle or trash or were otherwise lost or destroyed.  As with anything of this kind, some few are saved and cared for by some few who know their worth.

I have no need to "show you something" or to show anyone anything.

I'm giving you the same chance I had at acquiring something of value, and the price will be determined by who values it the most.

...and I have no interest in letting it go to someone who sees it as something to use forced logic to get it for a minimal price.  It's not a collectible or something to sit on a shelf as a prize someone managed to get by promoting some socialized benefit that really amounts to a personal benefit.

I'm hopeful it will go to someone who values it, will care for it, and may eventually either never let it go or pass it along for whatever reasonable value it has at that time to another who values it.  ..and by value, I mean will put their money up to prove their interest and valuation.

As for Ralph, I've owned 2 copies of this book over the years, this being the second and last one I've had.  At some point, Ralph got the percentage of each that he had calculated based on his original printing.  Do I owe him something now? I owe him precisely what he stipulated in publishing a copyright book... that I won't copy it and reduce his ability to sell or revise it for his benefit.  I have no intention of infringing on his copyright.

If any of those whining for lower prices on valuable older Amiga items really want something, perhaps standing against piracy and infringement and actually valuing things enough to give something for them when they want them would result in a dynamic Amiga market with lots of users again and that volume would lower all prices.

I won't hold my breath.

[nicholas]

Fill yer boots pirates!

http://amiga-manuals.xiik.net/amiga.php
http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/
http://amigadev.elowar.com/
http://magnet:?xt=urn:btih:9090d859dec515cc81de9e17454d26866ac74579&dn=Amiga+Guru+Book+Ralph+Babel+English+PDF&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.publicbt.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.istole.it%3A6969&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ccc.de%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.com%3A1337

[sprocket]

Fill yer boots pirates!

How much is your time worth?
How much is your education worth?

If you develop, and acquire your references through any means other than paying for them, or being given them by those who have paid for them, or by those who've published them and chosen to make them freely available for their own reasons, what expectation can you have anyone will value your work, your time or your effort?

If your preference is to use a physical book,  how much is it worth to you to find one, and acquire it?  

If someone else keeps something in fair shape, and makes it available to you when the item is scarce, is that worth something?

It's 2013 and the there's almost no one making anything for the Amiga community.
Why is that?  Because those that have been abused, and, with dwindling active numbers of
users the few who are left are increasingly newbies, and those looking for freebies.

What this tells me is:
- there is likely to be some quality stuff available to those really interested & willing to pay for it.
- and those of us who really used Amigas in the mid eighties and those who have hardware and software shouldn't bother having discussions concerning piracy, and infringement with those who's motives seem more likely simply a casual personal amusement, with no real interest in any sort of vibrant, active community that produces new stuff.

[nicholas]

All property is theft.

[sprocket]

All property is theft.

..and those who say such things and offer no workable, pragmatic alternative are wasting everyone's time and making sure nothing gets done.

[sprocket]

read the author's own response to what's happened to his original work at:

http://babel.de/amiga.html#doc

Without incentive, nothing happens and no one needs to own anything because there's nothing worth anything.

[nicholas]

..and those who say such things and offer no workable, pragmatic alternative are wasting everyone's time and making sure nothing gets done.

..and you selling a second hand copy of Ralph's work benefits who exactly?

[sprocket]

..and you selling a second hand copy of Ralph's work benefits who exactly?

Considering how much has been said above I would have thought that was made clear already, but I will summarize:

- selling good quality used/2nd hand goods of any sort demonstrates their continued value to those unfamiliar with them
- provides the initial purchasers with some recovery of their investment, and in the case of 3rd or 4th hand buyers, recovery of their investment and perhaps some benefit for their maintenance of and care of increasingly rare items. (this includes me)  Without this, many things would become impossible to find much quicker.
- provides the developer community with some indication of what subjects are of interest to the community, and where they might put new effort if they're interested in producing something within that community.

There are additional and tangential benefits to an active used marketplace including encouraging an active primary developer community and market.

Yes, there are plenty of examples of the corrosive ways capitalism can manifest itself, but those are not typically obvious, or relevant to the open secondary market.  ..and not a relevant pretense for proposing socialism or open access to everything without any pragmatic description of how that would work or support the community.

[nicholas]

Considering how much has been said above I would have thought that was made clear already, but I will summarize:

- selling good quality used/2nd hand goods of any sort demonstrates their continued value to those unfamiliar with them
- provides the initial purchasers with some recovery of their investment, and in the case of 3rd or 4th hand buyers, recovery of their investment and perhaps some benefit for their maintenance of and care of increasingly rare items. (this includes me)  Without this, many things would become impossible to find much quicker.
- provides the developer community with some indication of what subjects are of interest to the community, and where they might put new effort if they're interested in producing something within that community.

There are additional and tangential benefits to an active used marketplace including encouraging an active primary developer community and market.

Yes, there are plenty of examples of the corrosive ways capitalism can manifest itself, but those are not typically obvious, or relevant to the open secondary market.  ..and not a relevant pretense for proposing socialism or open access to everything without any pragmatic description of how that would work or support the community.

..and me posting links to free copies of Amiga programming reference manuals benefits the wider community tenfold.

[sprocket]

..and me posting links to free copies of Amiga programming reference manuals benefits the wider community tenfold.

Here we disagree.

Posting such links further demonstrates to authors including Ralph, that there are plenty who will promote and use digital versions that infringe on their copyright so there is no incentive for them to revise or author new works of value.

If there were a new, updated edition of such volumes I guarantee the market for the first edition would evaporate immediately, but not when there would likely also be a scanned digital version online of the new edition!

[nicholas]

Here we disagree.

Posting such links further demonstrates to authors including Ralph, that there are plenty who will promote and use digital versions that infringe on their copyright so there is no incentive for them to revise or author new works of value.

If there were a new, updated edition of such volumes I guarantee the market for the first edition would evaporate immediately, but not when there would likely also be a scanned digital version online of the new edition!

100% of the books I posted links to are now out of print.

If you want people to learn how to code for Amigas there is no better way than to give them free documentation.

I could sell my RKRM's, Guru Book and various other Amiga coding books but the main benificary of those sales would be me; certainly not the wider community nor the original authors.