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Author Topic: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors  (Read 10130 times)

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Offline freqmax

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Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2013, 01:44:37 PM »
Is PPC more effiient than ARM etc when counting instructions/herts and instructions/watt?
 

Offline WolfToTheMoon

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Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2013, 01:53:47 PM »



Since 2011, the market has shifted even more in favour of ARM and x86.

By revenue, for 2012





Bottomline, PPC is on it's way out.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2013, 02:18:21 PM »
Quote from: _ThEcRoW;743915
@vidarh

Keep in mind, that the ppc cpus in washingmachines, microwaves o r printers, as well as routers don't count as if it were computers.

The same could be said of the ARM CPU's used in the very same devices.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2013, 02:33:07 PM »
Quote from: _ThEcRoW;743915
@vidarh

Keep in mind, that the ppc cpus in washingmachines, microwaves o r printers, as well as routers don't count as if it were computers.
I've seen a few PPC chips in some Engine Control Units for cars and also as one of the redundant pathways in some aircraft avionics (where the flight control system will have two separate but functionally identical systems, built using different components I.e. one system would use PPC the other would use an ARM)... But other than that... I've never seen PPC in consumer electronics since the last PowerBook...

And the only reason the PPC is chosen for the aircraft and car systems, is becuase the chips have been built, tested and certified for harsh environments... Nothing to do with any architecture wins for the PPC :(

Offline bloodline

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Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2013, 02:39:21 PM »
Quote from: freqmax;743919
Is PPC more effiient than ARM etc when counting instructions/herts and instructions/watt?
The ARM is available in so many flavours now, there is a model that fits any application bette than any available PPC... The ARM always had the advantage of being competitive even when fabricated on older processes, the PPC was only ever competitive when fabed on modern processes :-/

Offline vidarh

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Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2013, 03:17:54 PM »
Quote from: WolfToTheMoon;743921

Since 2011, the market has shifted even more in favour of ARM and x86.



I'd question that source. For example, where are Qualcomm and Samsung, the by far two largest (by revenue) ARM licensees on the last chart?
 

Offline vidarh

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Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2013, 03:20:29 PM »
Quote from: _ThEcRoW;743915
@vidarh

Keep in mind, that the ppc cpus in washingmachines, microwaves o r printers, as well as routers don't count as if it were computers.


We're talking about "computers", we're talking about CPU's. By that argument about 90% of ARM's volume is irrelevant as well.
 

Offline spirantho

Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2013, 03:24:12 PM »
For those who are interested, the source of the graph posted was here:

http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/schirrmeister/tag/intel/

I think this has a bearing on things:
Quote
The underlying data for this graph includes standalone CPUs and System-on-Chips (SoCs) consumed by all tracked electronic system types.
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Offline vidarh

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Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2013, 03:52:57 PM »
Quote from: spirantho;743934
For those who are interested, the source of the graph posted was here:

http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/schirrmeister/tag/intel/

I think this has a bearing on things:

Even then it doesn't make any sense. ST MicroElectronics had about $8.5 billion total revenue for fiscal 2012, and according to their last quarterly report they're on target for similar revenue this year. Qualcomm and Samsung each made about $5 billion on ARM CPU's last year. (EDIT: Notice the difference - both Qualcomm and Samsung are substantially larger than STM if you look at total revenue - this is CPU revenue *only* compared to total revenue for STM)

Never mind that most of STM's CPU's business is in ST Ericsson - a 50/50 joint venture that only accounts for about $300 million of STM's yearly revenues.

STM *may* belong there if they're counting 8-bit microcontrollers, but in that case companies like Zilog should be there too (they bought Samsungs 4-bit and 8-bit microcontroller lines), and architectures like the ST32, Z80, 6502, 8051 and others would also in that case compete in the volume charts. Incidentally, NXP exited the 8051 market at the beginning of last year, and Zilog entered the same market.. (EDIT: Zilog is small in revenue compared to most others there, but then so is STM, Broadcom and NXP in CPU revenue,  so as a company it might belong there, but if counting these types of units it's architectures certainly belong on the architecture chart)

EDIT: Looking up AMD revenue numbers (from their financial filings), that data is even worse. 6.3% of a $94.2 billion market is $5.9 billion. However in 2012 earnings for AMD was $5.4 billion, and when you subtract their graphics division and others from that, you end up closer to $3.5billion to $4 billion (their GPU business alone accounts for $1billion+). So either their total estimated market size is wrong, or the AMD market share number is wrong, or they're charting something entirely different to what they say they're charting.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 04:31:53 PM by vidarh »
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2013, 05:02:59 PM »
Quote from: WolfToTheMoon;743921
Bottomline, PPC is on it's way out.
PPC's been "on its way out" for years now, as long as you ask proponents of any other architecture. But it's taking its time about actually being "out..."
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Offline freqmax

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Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2013, 05:35:12 PM »
Like many other products it seems to die the withering under the claws of businessdepartments that don't-get-it.

Would PPC had any chance if this had been done from the start?
 

Offline nicholas

Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2013, 05:53:23 PM »
Quote from: freqmax;743940
Like many other products it seems to die the withering under the claws of businessdepartments that don't-get-it.

Would PPC had any chance if this had been done from the start?


Maybe, but we'll never know. :)

When Jobs killed off the Mac clones it was the first nail in the coffin for PPC methinks.
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Offline Duce

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Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2013, 06:51:34 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;743899
" The PPC market is still larger  than the x86 market in number of units shipped"

Really?


Only if you look at data from many years ago.  x86 ships far more these days.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2013, 06:58:10 PM »
I wonder how many  newly built washing machines still have 68k's inside them?
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Offline WolfToTheMoon

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Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2013, 07:02:34 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;743948
I wonder how many  newly built washing machines still have 68k's inside them?

None, probably... Coldfires, yes.
 

Offline minator

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Re: IBM tries ARM-style Licensing of PPC Processors
« Reply #44 from previous page: August 07, 2013, 07:40:13 PM »
AFAIK this isn't about PPC.  PPCs have been licensable for years.

This is about POWER processors.  These have never been openly licensed.
These are high end server processors, not embedded chips (though they probably are used in some very specialist IBM embedded stuff).

IBM has been pushing POWER prices down recently to compete with Intel.
Intel are going to get a lot of competition soon from ARM so Intel will want to push upwards into high end systems.  This is where IBM live and they're fighting back.