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Author Topic: Philosophical Question - Amiguing  (Read 39200 times)

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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #104 on: July 19, 2013, 03:00:07 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;741279
God creating he universe is also a much more unlikely situation than the big bang happening on it's own, you have to brush aside logic completely to believe in God (likely/unlikely of course has no bearing on what actually happened).
Okay, we're getting way off on a tangent here, but I have to question this assertion. There may very well be evidence for the Big Bang as a physical process, but as to the idea that it by itself is a satisfactory explanation for the origin of the universe? Just one question: where did the matter involved come from? If, as some believe, it was funneled in from the "Big Crunch" of another universe, where did the matter in that universe come from? Is it turtles all the way down?

Sheez. At least someone who believes in a divinely-created universe is appealing directly to the supernatural, instead of implying non-specific magic and expecting nobody to notice.
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Offline nicholas

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #105 on: July 19, 2013, 03:13:24 AM »
http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/  Read Sermon 1

Now that's all i'm going to say on religion as this is not the coffee house forum.

In answer to the OP's question:

Evryone has a different reason for using or developing Amiga stuff and each reason is just as valid as all the opposing reasons.

I think the number one reason is probably because it is fun, with nostalgia probably coming in a close second.
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #106 on: July 19, 2013, 04:03:57 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;741288
http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/ Read Sermon 1

I like the bit about "treated contemptuously the creation of clay".
 
And a real world example of begging the question (unlike when people usually mean raises the question).
 
"Therefore, after observing all that exists in the world and the regulated system of the entire creation no one can help concluding that there is a Creator for this world of diversities because existence cannot come out of non-existence, nor can existence sprout forth from nothingness"
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 04:07:49 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline NovaCoder

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #107 on: July 19, 2013, 06:25:02 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;741288
http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/  Read Sermon 1


Omnipotence is such a cool word.
Life begins at 100 MIPS!


Nice Ports on AmiNet!
 

Offline agami

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #108 on: July 19, 2013, 07:15:09 AM »
I'd really like to get back to the original question:

Quote from: hbarcellos;740953
Why do we(1) keep trying to cultivate the Amiga (?)...


We
hbarcellos throws his lot in with the Amiga people. He is not asking 'Why do I?' or 'Why do you?', his asking why this tribe of ours, why we as a group?

Keep Trying
Something done over and over. It's not a single attempt, it's not why try now, but rather the enduring tries and retries.

The definition of stupidity is to repeat the same action and expecting a different result. Over the decades we have made differing attempts but expected the same result i.e. the return of the Amiga as a viable platform. What do we call that?

Cultivate
The essence of the question. It singles out those who are toiling in the proverbial fields. It does not include people who have been exposed to the Amiga recently, it's not about how my sisters played SuperFrog and liked it. They're not going around trying to get their friends to play the game. Memetically these individuals are infertile grounds. Just like none of us are cultivating the use of an abacus. We may find it interesting, and we may even discover some of its advantages for certain types of calculations, but in the end we go back to a digital calculator or a software facsimile thereof.

So the phrasing of the question implies a time period beyond the recent, an ongoing journey, a group behaviour, and the effort of cultivating specific ideas and ideals. Everywhere this kind of group behaviour is encountered the main driving emotion is always nostalgia. Physical books vs. digital books. Handwritten letters vs. email.

This is not a bad thing, only those of us lucky enough to be alive in the time of the Amiga can be nostalgic about it. And one day in the future when we've all 'kicked the bucket', people will be able to see an Amiga in a computer or technology museum, and perhaps read books about the passion some groups of people had towards some of the early computing platforms and no doubt see it as completely irrational.
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Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #109 on: July 19, 2013, 09:06:34 AM »
@Agami

Your psychological assessment is fundamentally flawed, though, because you've started with an invalid supposition.

Quote from: agami;741304

We
hbarcellos throws his lot in with the Amiga people. He is not asking 'Why do I?' or 'Why do you?', his asking why this tribe of ours, why we as a group?


This is completely invalid.
Amiga users are not a single user, group or "tribe" as you put it. We are not all as one. We each have our own reasons and purposes.
As an example, to use your analogy of a tribe:
Imagine a tribe in the Amazon rain forest.
Imagine there are two particular people in the tribe that we shall focus on. Let's - for the sake of argument - call them Fred and Barney.
Fred is the hunter gatherer of the tribe. His job is to go out and kill animals for food for the tribe. He does this well. He is a great hunter.
Barney is the tribe's elder. He does not need to do anything. Yet they both go out hunting.

Obviously we can see that both Fred and Barney both have different motives for doing the same thing. Fred has to - Barney does it too, but why does Barney do it?

What you're saying is that Amiga people are all in a group, all have the same objective, and therefore all have the same psychological reasoning behind them, but this is a fallacy, and it's one around which you have built your whole hypothesis.

In our fictional Amazonian tribe, does Barney do it out of necessity? No. Does he do it out of love of hunting? Or nostalgia because he used to be the hunter-gatherer of the tribe? Or does he like hanging out with his mate Barney?

We don't know - we don't have enough information upon which to base our hypothesis. And in the same way, we do not know why each and every Amiga user uses an Amiga. To lump them all together is as absurd as saying every man dislikes shopping or every woman is partial to pink magnolias, or saying that Barney and Fred go hunting out of a common need, which is provably incorrect (as it's Fred's job, not Barney's).

You can't do that.

Quote

Keep Trying
Something done over and over. It's not a single attempt, it's not why try now, but rather the enduring tries and retries.

The definition of stupidity is to repeat the same action and expecting a different result. Over the decades we have made differing attempts but expected the same result i.e. the return of the Amiga as a viable platform. What do we call that?


Again, a major fallacy in your presupposition.
You suppose that all Amiga users are doing the same thing to achieve the same result. This is not the case.
We are not - as Amiga users - all doing the same action. We're not repeating our action. We're doing different things, all the time. Was porting Qt to AmigaOS4 the same as writing Hello World in 1989? Of course not!
We are not repeating the same action expecting a different result, because the result is as a consequence of the initiating action. If I write an application for AmigaOS4, I don't expect the Second Coming of the Almighty Jay Miner. I expect a working application. If I write a Hello Word program, I expect my computer to say "Hello World" at me.

Secondly, the result.
Again: supposition.
You have stated that the end result of ALL AMIGA people is the return of the Amiga. This is provably and demonstrably false.
We do not all carry out our actions to make the Amiga mainstream again. Many of us are happy to have it as a niche platform. What we are striving for is continuity. We are trying to make the Amiga survive, not overtake the competition as you incorrectly suggest.
If we want to port Qt to the Amiga, our aim is to facilitate porting of future programs of Qt, NOT to destroy Microsoft and Apple.
That is our action. That is our result. We have succeeded. We do not, as you invalidly suggest, continue repeating the same action over and over expecting the same result.

Quote

Cultivate
The essence of the question. It singles out those who are toiling in the proverbial fields. It does not include people who have been exposed to the Amiga recently, it's not about how my sisters played SuperFrog and liked it. They're not going around trying to get their friends to play the game. Memetically these individuals are infertile grounds. Just like none of us are cultivating the use of an abacus. We may find it interesting, and we may even discover some of its advantages for certain types of calculations, but in the end we go back to a digital calculator or a software facsimile thereof.

So the phrasing of the question implies a time period beyond the recent, an ongoing journey, a group behaviour, and the effort of cultivating specific ideas and ideals. Everywhere this kind of group behaviour is encountered the main driving emotion is always nostalgia. Physical books vs. digital books. Handwritten letters vs. email.

This is not a bad thing, only those of us lucky enough to be alive in the time of the Amiga can be nostalgic about it. And one day in the future when we've all 'kicked the bucket', people will be able to see an Amiga in a computer or technology museum, and perhaps read books about the passion some groups of people had towards some of the early computing platforms and no doubt see it as completely irrational.


So people who hand-write letters are being nostalgic? And it's not because they just might not own a computer?
People who read a book on paper instead of a computer are being nostalgic? Are you sure it's not just because many people don't like looking at screens for a long time? Or because taking your laptop into the bath isn't a good thing?

By the same argument you could say that in hindsight anybody enthusing about an obsolete technology is being irrational and "nostalgic", yet if you put yourself in that situation and look at the FACTS, you will that it can be anything but. There are provable demonstrable reasons as to why we as humans do what we do, nostalgia is but one possibility. Lumping all people in to fit one example which you have chosen, and thereby extrapolating for the whole group, is the worst psychology imaginable. It's manipulating the evidence to fit the theory, rather than fitting the theory to the evidence in front of you. By the same token you could find a field of sheep with one black sheep in it, take a sample of one sheep as to which sheep are black, pick the black sheep and extrapolate it to say that the whole field of sheep are black.

We - as Amiga users - are not one person.
We do not share a common goal.
Nobody can tell me what my goal is. My goal is determined by me and me alone.
My reasons for my continuing towards my goal are my own, and mine alone.

It may not fit in with psychological mass grouping as you're advocating, but like it or not:

I am an individual. Remember that when you fit me into your mass group of 1000 people because it allows you to put a label on me.



(Incidentally: in case you're thinking I'm being defensive, you're right. I hate it when people generalise me with other people, more so when they've never met me. It's a pet hate of mine :) )
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Offline nicholas

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #110 on: July 19, 2013, 10:12:19 AM »
I think one mass generalisation that probably does apply to all of us is that we do what we do with Amigas and related and derived technologies for the simple pleasure of doing it.

I've been coding Amiga stuff again for the first time in decades recently and I'm doing it merely for the pleasure of coding for the sake of coding. No particular general goal, no pressure, no deadlines, no PHB demanding random features, just enjoying it for what it is.

I suppose the only "defined goal" I have if I were pressured into thinking of one is that my code compiles and runs on Amiga OS, MorphOS, AROS and OS4.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #111 on: July 19, 2013, 11:20:37 AM »
Well let us just say that human beings aren't quite the purely rational, utility-maximising beings certain Enlightenment philosophers and modern economists would like.

Also anyone who doesn't like the Amiga has no soul.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #112 on: July 19, 2013, 01:29:45 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741321
Well let us just say that human beings aren't quite the purely rational, utility-maximising beings certain Enlightenment philosophers and modern economists would like.

Also anyone who doesn't like the Amiga has no soul.
That's not fair, I don't think I have a soul... But I still love the Amiga :)

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #113 on: July 19, 2013, 05:08:42 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;741329
That's not fair, I don't think I have a soul... But I still love the Amiga :)
Well, that still fits with Mrs Beanbag's axiom, doesn't it? ;P

Quote from: spirantho;741313
*very many words*

Lumping all people in to fit one example which you have chosen, and  thereby extrapolating for the whole group, is the worst psychology  imaginable. It's manipulating the evidence to fit the theory, rather  than fitting the theory to the evidence in front of you.
Thank you.
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Offline paul1981

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #114 on: July 19, 2013, 08:58:19 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741321
Well let us just say that human beings aren't quite the purely rational, utility-maximising beings certain Enlightenment philosophers and modern economists would like.

Also anyone who doesn't like the Amiga has no soul.

The Amiga has a soul, it's greater than the sum of its parts. :knuddel:
I used my Amiga on my own for years, my friends at school played the odd game but I was the one doing all the more interesting stuff like DPaint, ImageFX, Amos, Workbench tinkering etc and upgrading my Amiga. This was and still is a great source of pleasure for me. I didn't interact with other users until I joined this very forum 4 years ago. So I don't buy this "group" viewpoint entirely. That'll be true for some, but it doesn't apply to everyone, and not to me.
I'll enjoy my Amiga on my own, like I always did if need be! I'll continue to use them and tinker with them on a daily basis for my own pleasure entirely, and if the internet crumbles one day then it won't mean I'll stop using my Amiga. It'll likely mean I'll use it even more...
 

Offline gertsy

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #115 on: July 20, 2013, 01:12:50 AM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741321
Well let us just say that human beings aren't quite the purely rational, utility-maximising beings certain Enlightenment philosophers and modern economists would like.

Also anyone who doesn't like the Amiga has no soul.


The "enlightened",philosophers and to a lesser extent modern economists are the archetypal example as to why human beings aren't rational. Evidential historians / archaeologists the exception. Those that deal in absolutes are always wrong. :)

Amiga's are fun.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 01:14:14 AM by gertsy »
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #116 on: July 20, 2013, 02:43:43 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;741279
God creating he universe is also a much more unlikely situation than the big bang happening on it's own, you have to brush aside logic completely to believe in God (likely/unlikely of course has no bearing on what actually happened).

Actually, I have no problem with the Big Bang being the mode of creation.
"Let there be light", boom.
Yep, that works for me.
And I also don't have a problem with evolution being yet another mode of creation.
One that, instead of lasting only seven days, continues indefinitely.
Also, when you study biology, you see some weird jumps from one species to it descendants.
For instance, there is no intermediate structure between hair and feathers.
You have one or the other.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 02:46:34 AM by Iggy »
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Offline psxphill

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #117 on: July 20, 2013, 11:25:58 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;741363
For instance, there is no intermediate structure between hair and feathers.
You have one or the other.

I actually think this will turn out to not be true.
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19422430
 
Having one or the other is like people generally only having one hair colour.
 
While god might have triggered the big bang, none of the large organised religions have dared throw away all their theories about how the universe was created in light of scientific evidence. Instead they have spent a long time trying to disprove science to show that their god exists (which is a logical fallacy but hey).
 
Science cannot disprove the possibility of a god, it can only blow huge holes in religious texts written by man. As the writers god is supposed to have been heavily involved in the creation of those texts then they were either deluded, liars or their god is a practical joker. You could argue that there has been misinterpretation, but I cannot believe that a god that influenced the writing of religion texts would have allowed that to happen.
 
But there could be a god that hasn't influenced any religions that created the visible universe. However this opens up even more questions than it answers as you then have to consider what else is there outside the visible universe. So while god might be the actual answer, it's a rather farfetched and inconvenient one (unless you are into blind faith or you're the one manipulating the masses).
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 11:33:09 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #118 on: July 20, 2013, 12:02:59 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;741389
However this opens up even more questions than it answers as you then have to consider what else is there outside the visible universe.
You already have to do that anyway.

Quote from: psxphill;741389
So while god might be the actual answer, it's a rather farfetched and inconvenient one
Perhaps not. There has always existed something. Was that something just 'stuff' or a person (omnipotent being)? Pretty hard to tell, isn't it?
 

Offline motrucker

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #119 from previous page: July 20, 2013, 12:44:48 PM »
I find the most people who question what they are doing (computer type or whatever)as much as the OP is doing, are in the middle of a midlife crisis.
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