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Author Topic: Philosophical Question - Amiguing  (Read 39049 times)

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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #89 on: July 18, 2013, 07:32:27 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;741244
It might if it's not deterministic or random.
It's one or the other, surely?

Quote
I mean that we are souls, not have them, and that being one is the end of the line. As to how that would work, who knows. That's the problem with those existential questions, they're very hard, if not impossible, to answer.
Right. I just don't see how "being a soul" is any more likely to answer the question than "being a physical object". What exactly is it about "souls" that make them different from ordinary matter, such that they can have free will, but physical objects can't?

You say, well that's the problem isn't it, it's impossible to know. But surely that's because we've just made a word up to cover up the gap in the knowledge, stuck a label on "the thing that answers the problem" even though we don't know what that thing is. We need to define our terms. If we can't define "free will" in terms of comprehensible processes, it doesn't mean anything at all.

"Free will" is actually two terms, "will" and "free". "Will" is the difficult one for me. I understand "free" by analogy to turing completeness. The opposite of freedom is constraint. A specialised system is constrained in what it can and can't do. A general purpose computer, however, is not. It can calculate anything calculable. Such a computer need not be made out of anything physically special - it could as well be made out of ball bearings running down tracks than out of silicon-based electronics. Or you could make a computer out of "souls" (in something like a reversal of the Chinese Room experiment, a live person could process inputs according to strict instructions and be indistinguishable from a computer). It's the process that matters, not the matter that processes.
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Offline hbarcellosTopic starter

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #90 on: July 18, 2013, 07:34:04 PM »
Quote from: EDanaII;741240
Jumping in for a moment...

I, personally, believe that the Universe is entirely deterministic but in order to predict it, one must know all the variables. I also believe that knowing all the variables is virtually impossible, making the Universe, for all intents and purposes, random. :) Such is the conumdrum of our existance. Another conundrum is the dertministic vs. free will paradox, to which I usually say "who cares? Enjoy the ride!" ;)


Well, I refuse to comment anything about religion, god, or soul... I prefer Einstein's true vision about it, but, about the "Who Cares", I would call it curiosity. I am actually enjoying the ride. And, maybe, the ride is even better when you go deeper and try to understand some key fundamentals of our existence.
Maybe the true ride can only be enjoyed by "Freigeist"
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Offline Thorham

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #91 on: July 18, 2013, 08:07:09 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741249
It's one or the other, surely?
Who's to say? I certainly can't.

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741249
Right. I just don't see how "being a soul" is any more likely to answer the question than "being a physical object". What exactly is it about "souls" that make them different from ordinary matter, such that they can have free will, but physical objects can't?
That they have properties that matter and energy don't have? Weak, I know, but this is quite hard to answer when you don't really understand it yourself :o

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741249
But surely that's because we've just made a word up to cover up the gap in the knowledge, stuck a label on "the thing that answers the problem" even though we don't know what that thing is.
It's similar to dark matter. We don't know what it is, but it seems that it's necessary for it to exist based on what we see. The difference with free will and souls is that with free will we can't see if it exists or not at all, while with dark matter we can see that there are things going on which are hard to explain without it. Hope that makes some sense.

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741249
We need to define our terms. If we can't define "free will" in terms of comprehensible processes, it doesn't mean anything at all.
The only thing I can say about it is that it's something that's neither random nor deterministic. Vague, I know :o
 

Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #92 on: July 18, 2013, 09:45:59 PM »
Maybe it just comes down to words but to me random just means non-deterministic.

I think the sticking point is the difficulty of imagining how high-level freedom can be an emergent property of low-level determinism. The laws of physics only determine how atoms (or quarks or whatever) move about and interact with each other. They're not writing the script of a huge drama, like the Greeks maybe imagined the Gods sitting down and doing.

Maybe you could call it free will by obfuscation, but there's also another thing to consider - must we "externalise" the determinism, as something that influences or constrains us from outside, rather than being a defining part of who we are? I am the one who is writing this, no matter what the intricate chain of cause and effect that lead up to it.
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Offline nicholas

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #93 on: July 18, 2013, 10:14:06 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;741246
Or maybe we are just a very special body :)


Special compared to what though?  The human body is not more special than the body of any other animal, it's just flesh and bones. :)
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #94 on: July 18, 2013, 10:22:18 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;741262
Special compared to what though?  The human body is not more special than the body of any other animal, it's just flesh and bones. :)
Speak for yourself.
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Offline nicholas

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #95 on: July 18, 2013, 10:28:44 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741263
Speak for yourself.


What's so special about your body compared to any other living creature's body?
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Offline EDanaII

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #96 on: July 18, 2013, 11:05:32 PM »
The ability to converse in abstract concepts, such as the above? :)
Ed.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #97 on: July 18, 2013, 11:52:05 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;740976
I wonder what the incidence rate of individuals who fall within the Autistic Spectrum are within the Amiga community (or even retro computing communities in general) is compared with society as a whole?
 
I'd be willing to wager it is pretty high.

This is about the fourth time in only a few months that someone I know has asked this question.
And the answer is a clear yes.
Autistic, mentally unbalanced, etc.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #98 on: July 19, 2013, 12:11:56 AM »
Quote from: agami;741179
It has been conclusively proven that in the presence  of sense memory surrounding a subject matter, be it positive or  negative, a person can never form an objective assessment related to the  same subject matter. It has to do with how the amygdala consolidates  emotion originating in the limbic brain with other related aspects from  higher level brain functions into the hippocampus.

The limbic brain is very simple, there aren't multiple areas for the  different kinds of love one may feel i.e. love of a partner, love of a  child, love of a friend or family member, love of a pet, or love of  inanimate objects. All those hit the same area. Of course with differing  intensity and also filtered through some of the higher brains to  provide context. Same goes for dislike or hate. And with animals and  inanimate objects like a car or a computer we assist this emotional bond  through anthropomorphism.

We can certainly discuss things objectively and we can produce written  materials that read objectively, when we think about them in absence of  any emotional context. But the instant we start adding adjectives  describing emotions like 'I enjoy' or 'it's fun', we are automatically  applying a subjective view.
Hoo boy. First off, if you're  going to throw around terms like "conclusively proven," I'd like to see  some links. But I'm not inclined to believe that. For starters, the very  fact that we can conceive of separating the rational mind from the  emotional self, and can consciously attempt to detach ourselves  emotionally from something (however imperfectly) makes for a pretty fair  argument that the two are not inextricable from each other. You  yourself suggest that this is possible in your last paragraph, yet in  your first you say that it isn't...

Second, if it is true that we can only give objective  consideration to something to which we have no emotional  attachment (which, as I said, I don't buy,) then we essentially have  no objective basis for liking anything, because if we care  about it at all, whether through like or dislike, then we can't be  objective about it. This means that (as suggested in the OP) there's no  reason other than the emotive for liking the Amiga, but it also means  that there's no reason other than the emotive for liking any other  operating system, so it says nothing at all about the comparative  objective merits of any of them, and our like or dislike of any OS is no  more valid or invalid than anybody else's like or dislike of it. Which  makes the OP's whole notion that it's "only nostalgia" essentially a  meaningless distinction.

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741249
Right. I just don't see how "being a soul" is any more likely to answer the question than "being a physical object". What exactly is it about "souls" that make them different from ordinary matter, such that they can have free will, but physical objects can't?
The thing is that basically anyone's definition of a "soul" involves freedom from the constraints of what we believe to be a deterministic physical universe. Asking why they're not subject to determinism like physical matter is like asking why physical matter is subject to conservation of energy; it's part of the inherent parameters of the universe. Souls, if they exist, are non-deterministic free wills because if they weren't, they wouldn't be souls. If you accept the possibility of their existence in the first place, you render the question essentially meaningless (because the question is asking for a scientific explanation of something outside the scope of empirical science in a deterministic physical universe.) If you don't accept it, then the argument is purely academic and just as meaningless (because the question is asking for a scientific explanation of something that cannot actually exist, at which point any explanation is as good as any other.)

Quote from: nicholas;741245
We are not a body with a soul but a soul with a body.
Depends who you ask. I look at it as both being key components in what makes a human being. We have an animal nature because of our flesh-and-blood bodies and brains; we are more than merely animals because of our souls. Take away either one, and you're left with something that isn't fully human.
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Offline EDanaII

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #99 on: July 19, 2013, 12:56:58 AM »
Quote from: hbarcellos;741251
Well, I refuse to comment anything about religion, god, or soul... I prefer Einstein's true vision about it, but, about the "Who Cares", I would call it curiosity. I am actually enjoying the ride. And, maybe, the ride is even better when you go deeper and try to understand some key fundamentals of our existence.
Maybe the true ride can only be enjoyed by "Freigeist"


Well, just to be clear, I wasn't trying to be derisive when I said "who cares." :) I enjoy a good intellectual discussion as the next guy, but given the nature of this particular type of conversation, I have to conclude, what useful knowledge can be obtained from this? If the Universe is random, I still have to react to whatever it throws my way. If the Universe is determined, I still have to react to whatever it throws my way. Hence my conclusion: "might as well enjoy the ride." :)
Ed.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #100 on: July 19, 2013, 02:32:34 AM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741241
Suppose we do have "souls". Then we have to answer, how does that work then? Are souls automatons? Or does your soul have a soul as well? See also Homunculus argument: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument

souls and homunculus are different arguments.
 
homunculus argument is that there is a tiny person inside looking at a screen. You only need to change the tiny person to a part of your brain taking nerve impulses and you're back on track.
 
A soul isn't a tiny person, however my belief is that what is generally considered your soul is just another part of your brain & when you're dead it ceases to exist.
 
I don't believe in multi-verses either.
 
All these ideas were introduced because they thought it made it easier to explain, however the one thing they do all have in common is they actually make it harder. God creating he universe is also a much more unlikely situation than the big bang happening on it's own, you have to brush aside logic completely to believe in God (likely/unlikely of course has no bearing on what actually happened).
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #101 on: July 19, 2013, 02:39:27 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;741268
This is about the fourth time in only a few months that someone I know has asked this question.
And the answer is a clear yes.
Autistic, mentally unbalanced, etc.

Well one only has to take a glimpse at moobunny for proof of that! lol
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Offline NovaCoder

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #102 on: July 19, 2013, 02:43:31 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;741268
This is about the fourth time in only a few months that someone I know has asked this question.
And the answer is a clear yes.
Autistic, mentally unbalanced, etc.


Yep there are certainly some very 'interesting' people involved in the scene, of course I'm almost 100% sane and a perfectly normal member of society.

:)
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Offline nicholas

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #103 on: July 19, 2013, 02:52:48 AM »
Quote from: NovaCoder;741284
Yep there are certainly some very 'interesting' people involved in the scene, of course I'm almost 100% sane and a perfectly normal member of society.

:)

I'm as mad as a march hare myself. lol
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #104 from previous page: July 19, 2013, 03:00:07 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;741279
God creating he universe is also a much more unlikely situation than the big bang happening on it's own, you have to brush aside logic completely to believe in God (likely/unlikely of course has no bearing on what actually happened).
Okay, we're getting way off on a tangent here, but I have to question this assertion. There may very well be evidence for the Big Bang as a physical process, but as to the idea that it by itself is a satisfactory explanation for the origin of the universe? Just one question: where did the matter involved come from? If, as some believe, it was funneled in from the "Big Crunch" of another universe, where did the matter in that universe come from? Is it turtles all the way down?

Sheez. At least someone who believes in a divinely-created universe is appealing directly to the supernatural, instead of implying non-specific magic and expecting nobody to notice.
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