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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #104 on: July 07, 2013, 12:15:25 AM »
Quote from: persia;740052
Your TV does internet, XBOX, PlayStation, Wii do internet, phones do internet, tablets do internet, zeus knows what else will do internet.
Yes, an assload of devices can now "do Internet" (apparently we're  borrowing phrasing from a seventy-year-old grandma, doing the Internet  with the Bookface and the VideoTube and the whatsits?) None of them do  it as well as a PC or laptop; of those, only tablets even come  close. A smartphone is definitely easier to carry in your pocket than a  laptop, and it's a perfectly fine thing for keeping a grocery list or  checking email on the road; for actual web browsing, it's heavily  constrained by screen size, with the experience being anywhere from  "tolerable but not great" on sites with "phone" versions to downright  comically bad on sites designed for a full-sized screen.

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The PC age, where the desktop was dominant is no more, devices other than PCs form the majority of smart devices.  The market is proving it as we speak.
The market is proving nothing of the kind, unless you've got some  figures on actual usage you're not sharing. Once again: sales  figures only convey information about what people are buying, not  what they are using and in which contexts they are using it. There  is absolutely no reason to assume that everybody who buys an iPhone goes  and throws out their desktop, unless you're desperately trying to make  things sound like you want them to sound using data that doesn't  actually support that assertion.

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Who needs a desktop?  Those who do serious work such as developing apps for other smart devices.  Who doesn't need them?  Most everybody else.
Who needs a desktop or laptop? Anybody who does any kind of  meaningful work on a computer, anybody who enjoys creative pursuits  using the mass of good creative software for PCs, anybody who  doesn't like touchscreens or shıtty rubber Bluetooth keyboards in floppy  fold-out "poor man's laptop" cases, anybody who enjoys games that aren't the Bejeweled crap flooding the iOS or Android markets or watered-down console garbage, anybody who wants cost-effective mass storage, etcetera, etcetera.

Who doesn't need them? Slackjaws for whom the computer is a glorified TV, who spend their entire free time watching Jenna farkin' Marbles and desperately trying to get her to "like" them on Facebook, and for whom the closest they ever get to any kind of creative pursuit is spinning wild tales about the "post-PC era" at the slightest provocation. Yeah, those people probably don't need a real computer; they might hurt themselves on its non-patented square corners. They should be much safer with a smooth, featureless 6oz. slab.

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The PC is just one device amongst a host of devices.  This is what Apple and others have meant by post-pc.  Apple continues to develop desktops too, so if they meant what you believed them to mean they'd be kicking a dead horse.
The fact that Apple's business arm has a great deal more sense than its marketing arm (which is probably just repeating "post-PC" in an attempt to get people to believe it, and buy more iPads) does not change the meaning of the words "post-PC era," because those words actually mean set things and combine in regular ways, and insisting that they mean something different together is poor communication. If they really are only trying to say that people use other things than PCs for some tasks, I have news for you: people have always used things other than PCs for some tasks. Did the microwave bring about the "post-oven era?"

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Speaking of horses, no one would argue that we are in the post-horse transport era, yet I can still ride a horse if I want to.
This would be a meaningful analogy if horses were actually better at a wide variety of tasks than cars and more comfortable for long-term use. It's actually the opposite, so working from your logic, I look forward to the upcoming post-tablet era.
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Offline Duce

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #105 on: July 07, 2013, 12:31:40 AM »
John, may I ask you what you use for a cellular phone, what you use for a day to day PC, etc?  Have you used an iPad, Android tablet, larger form factor smart phone?

Most people have zero problems browsing the web in a fully functional manner on any smartphone that was made in the last few years.  We're talking "free with a contract" run of the mill Android fare.

It's not 2002.  The vast majority of popular websites do have mobile versions that work just great.  Most people aren't using Palm Treo's.  In fact, A.org is the ONLY website I visit on a regular basis that doesn't have an auto detecting mobile version.
 

Offline ElPolloDiablTopic starter

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #106 on: July 07, 2013, 01:04:50 AM »
I like how they thought: "Everyone must want thin PC's. We have to make thin PC's." (With the rare under 7mm hard drives. Plus no room for any expansions).
   Personally my next purchase might be a touchscreen, all in one, kiosk type computer. I could sit it somewhere and use it like an appliance. I'd use it for google searches and casual games.
   Other than that I am slowly adding to my desktop box.

   The big companies are hooked on the idea of renting things to you. I bet the old fashioned way of: have product... a sale... upgrade the product... another sale... product breaks... customer buys a replacement... That must result in more money than renting.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #107 on: July 07, 2013, 01:31:03 AM »
Quote from: Duce;740057
John, may I ask you what you use for a cellular phone, what you use for a day to day PC, etc?  Have you used an iPad, Android tablet, larger form factor smart phone?

Most people have zero problems browsing the web in a fully functional  manner on any smartphone that was made in the last few years.  We're  talking "free with a contract" run of the mill Android fare.

It's not 2002.  The vast majority of popular websites do have mobile  versions that work just great.  Most people aren't using Palm Treo's.   In fact, A.org is the ONLY website I visit on a regular basis that  doesn't have an auto detecting mobile version.
You may. I have some cheap imitation Blackberry thing that was the cheapest thing Verizon supported last time I upgraded, because all I personally do with a phone is place and receive calls. (I would've gone for a no-frills flip-phone, but counterintuitively they wanted more for that!) Day-to-day computing is mostly on my laptop, a 12" HP Core 2 Duo affair, with gaming and some various pursuits that require stationary equipment (MIDI sequencing, f'rexample) on my desktop system, a significantly faster Core 2 Duo with a halfway decent GPU.

I have, however, used my brother's iPad and iPhone enough to get a feel for them. The web browsing experience on the iPad is basically okay except for the touchscreen keyboard (the Bluetooth keyboard makes it better, but it's still nowhere near as good as even a half-travel laptop keyboard.) Yes, Safari's technical functionality is perfectly satisfactory; it's not like the dark days of Opera Mobile on Blackberries. And yes, more sites support mobile browsers than used to (though I think it's not by as much as you think, but eh.) It's still not a good experience, because it's just too damn cramped.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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Offline Madshib

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #108 on: July 07, 2013, 03:16:31 AM »
I really prefer my laptop than any tablet that I've used. In fact, I've bought two tablets in twelve months, and they were both for my 9 year old daughter. She spends more time using them to watch One Direction videos or play Minecraft.

I've been using a Dell laptop from 6 years ago which still works fine and I have zero need for upgrade. I suppose that's why my next purchase is an A1200, I have no need to purchase new PC hardware.

And no, Linux still does not feel like an Amiga ;)
 

Offline persia

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #109 on: July 07, 2013, 03:29:31 AM »
True, Windows 8 doesn't provide much for old Windows 7 users.  Especially on the failure of the Microsoft Store on Windows 8 apps.  I personally have a desktop, but it gets far less use than my iPad or MacBook Air.  

What percentage of people do things other than facebook and email?  Back in the '80s people had a computer to program and tinker with.  But nowadays few program and even fewer tinker.  Windows users don't want to do anything that doesn't involve a GUI, true Mac users can and do drop into a terminal and use a command line but even Mac users rely fairly heavily on the GUI.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #110 on: July 07, 2013, 03:39:47 AM »
Quote from: persia;740070
What percentage of people do things other than facebook and email?
Good question! Do you know? Because if you don't have some evidence that the answer is "not many," I can't see how this line of inquiry helps your point.

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Back in the '80s people had a computer to program and tinker with.  But nowadays few program and even fewer tinker.
Even assuming this is true, there is a vast swath of things that can be done with a computer in between "programming and hardware hacking" and "Facebook and email."
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline ElPolloDiablTopic starter

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #111 on: July 07, 2013, 04:22:41 AM »
Take something like Excel. You are going to be using keyboard shortcuts more than the mouse. I've yet to use MS office (or the open version) on a touchscreen computer. It should be fun?

The disappointing part is that you can no longer customise things. There are a set number of 'themes'. Everything runs off a menu interface, no more desktop.
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Offline cha05e90

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #112 on: July 07, 2013, 12:11:48 PM »
Quote from: persia;740070
Windows users don't want to do anything that doesn't involve a GUI, true Mac users can and do drop into a terminal and use a command line

No. It's the other way around.
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Offline psxphill

Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #113 on: July 07, 2013, 12:41:59 PM »
Quote from: cha05e90;740086
No. It's the other way around.

Yeah, I would have said more people use command prompt on windows than open a shell on MacOS.
 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 12:44:44 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline Kesa

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #114 on: July 07, 2013, 02:01:11 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;740088
Yeah, I would have said more people use command prompt on windows than open a shell on MacOS.
 

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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #115 on: July 07, 2013, 02:41:02 PM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;740059
The big companies are hooked on the idea of renting things to you. I bet the old fashioned way of: have product... a sale... upgrade the product... another sale... product breaks... customer buys a replacement... That must result in more money than renting.
I don't think so. If you're renting they effectively force you to upgrade even if you don't really need to. Well they say "free upgrade!" but guess who's paying for it anyway.

I think the industry would like to move everyone over to tablets etc, they imagine the public never aspire to do anything creative and will buy any sparkly gadget you throw at them, I don't think they're finding it quite that easy though. There's been a resurgence in tinkering lately in the form of the "makers movement". Maybe it's testament to the fact that hobbying all but died out 20 years ago, that the next generation had to invent another name for it.

When we had computers in the '80s we used them for programming and all sorts of stuff, because development was simple and cheap and anyone could do it if they were willing to read a book. Then it became big business and nobody imagined doing it anymore except if you got a degree in it and god a job in the industry. Now in the era of smart device proliferation, anyone can program again. Every web browser has Javascript. You can get Android dev kits for free. There are abstracted high-level languages for everything. And kids are realising, once again, that "hey you can actually do all sorts of cool stuff with computers!" Because you really can, even with a lowly 800MHz Arm, which has more power than was imaginable when we were kids. Hence the Raspberry Pi.

But the fact is, I think, that nobody needs the very expensive top-of-the-range desktop PCs anymore, not just for facebook &c, but for doing cool stuff too. I use a desktop PC myself out of personal preference (it's what I'm used to), it's quite old and it was "entry level" when I got it (I always hated that euphemism for low-spec, I'm hardly a computer novice I'm just aware of how little power I need) but more and more people grew up with laptops, and are used to them. I don't think PCs are anywhere near dead yet, but the days of needing an ominous full tower system under your desk that sounds like a vacuum cleaner are over. Thank goodness.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #116 on: July 07, 2013, 03:14:14 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;740092
I think the industry would like to move everyone over to tablets etc, they imagine the public never aspire to do anything creative and will buy any sparkly gadget you throw at them, I don't think they're finding it quite that easy though. There's been a resurgence in tinkering lately in the form of the "makers movement". Maybe it's testament to the fact that hobbying all but died out 20 years ago, that the next generation had to invent another name for it.
Right on.
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Offline haywirepc

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #117 on: July 07, 2013, 05:41:26 PM »
People keep saying that people don't need desktop pc's anymore.

This is entirely not the case. Anyone who creates or manipulates digital data,
graphics, sound, video needs a desktop, and the more powerful the better.

I don't see that changing anytime soon. Content consumers (people who watch videos, listen to music, look at pics) sure, they can use a low spec device to consume that content, but people making content still need a desktop.
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #118 on: July 07, 2013, 07:04:48 PM »
No, no, see, creative people don't count, haywire, because nobody is creative anymore! The only creative activity in the modern world is the province of some tiny elite cadre of Designated Content Producers who are elevated beyond the station of mere mortals, and all the rest of the world is made up of glassy-eyed couch potatoes who simply are Not Creative and only exist to sit passively consuming content and mooing approval! This is obviously true because, well, it's obviously true!

Christ. It's kind of amazing that I of all people have more faith in the human race than tablet evangelists.
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Offline haywirepc

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #119 from previous page: July 07, 2013, 07:20:11 PM »
I totally agree. Seems like "they" are trying to take all digital power away from average people, so its reserved for those who sell the content.

I feel exactly the same way about "cloud computing" - Here, you just need a terminal and you can pay us monthly to use our storage and processing power.

I want the power and my own content in my own hands, not some phantom corporation who will charge me a monthly fee, but it seems thats the way the "industry" is going.