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Offline bbond007Topic starter

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Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« on: May 12, 2013, 03:15:12 AM »
I ordered a used Roland Sound Canvas SC88 Pro. Its not arrived yet, but I'm just trying to make sure I have the right cables to use it with my amiga.

I do have an Amiga MIDI adapter, but it is kind of bulky and perhaps unnecessary. I understand that the SC88 pro is capable of hooking to a PC or MAC directly via serial, however it appears to have a mini-din like the old 68K macintosh computers. I'm hoping to use a mac serial cable(which I already have) with a 9-25pin NULL Adapter which I ordered. I tried a regular 9-25 adapter with my ohm meter and it appeared the the TX and RX needed to be reversed so the simplest thing to do was to order a different 9-25 pin adapter with a NULL. The SC88 documentation seems to suggest it uses the same mini-din serial configuration as a Mac anyway...

The SC88pro has a switch for Mac vs PC serial. What is that all about? What is the difference between Mac vs PC serial? Both PC and Macs use the same mini-din serial port. What should I set that switch to with an Amiga using a Mac serial cable?

What software on the would you suggest I use on the Amiga? Are there any differences I should be aware of with the direct serial connection vs the MIDI box? Will the software see it as the same?

I'm only really interested in playback of general MIDI. My only other experience with MIDI on the amiga was simply Sierra games with MT32. With the MT32 I used the MIDI box. It does not have a serial connection.

I really don't know anything about the SC88Pro or Amiga MIDI and not found much discussion of the two being used together.

Thanks@
 

Offline Ral-Clan

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Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2013, 03:23:10 AM »
I don't think you can use the serial connection on the Amiga.  I believe you may have need special drivers on the Mac / PC side for that - as their serial ports (at least the PC's) couldn't do the odd speed MIDI uses.  The Amiga's serial port is more flexible, and could do MIDI's baud rate.  But you will need a MIDI interface.

I use an SC55 with Bars & Pipes (there is even an SC55 tool to automate selection of patches from within Bars & Pipes).  But I use it for composing music, rather than just playing MIDI files.  Since the SC88 is a General MIDI device, any file that plays MIDI files (i.e. .MID files) should play fine - under the General MIDI format voices will be automatically assigned to proper sounds on the playback device.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 01:57:41 PM by ral-clan »
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Offline bbond007Topic starter

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Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2013, 03:51:16 AM »
Quote from: ral-clan;734606
I don't think you can use the serial connection on the Amiga.  I believe you may have neede special drivers on the Mac / PC side for that - as their serial ports (at least the PC's) couldn't do the odd speed MIDI uses.  They Amigas serial port is more flexible, and could do MIDI's baud rate.  But you will need a MIDI interface.

Actually, this may help. Reading the manual I can see that the switch has 4 states.

PC-1(MAC), PC-2(MAC), PC-1(PC), PC-2(PC)

The PC-1 settings are 31.25K (bit/sec) and the PC-2 settings are 38.4K (bit/sec). Still, the difference between PC and MAC are unclear from the manual.

I would think for any chance of success withy the Amiga, the speed would have to be set to 31.25 so that the machine things its talking to the MIDI box. Would that be correct?

I'm pretty sure the SC55 does not have the serial port unless its an MKII model. I was also looking as SC55s before really deciding on the SC88pro.


Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 03:53:29 AM by bbond007 »
 

Offline gertsy

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Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2013, 04:18:28 AM »
Quote from: bbond007;734608
Actually, this may help. Reading the manual I can see that the switch has 4 states.

PC-1(MAC), PC-2(MAC), PC-1(PC), PC-2(PC)

The PC-1 settings are 31.25K (bit/sec) and the PC-2 settings are 38.4K (bit/sec). Still, the difference between PC and MAC are unclear from the manual.

I would think for any chance of success withy the Amiga, the speed would have to be set to 31.25 so that the machine things its talking to the MIDI box. Would that be correct?

I'm pretty sure the SC55 does not have the serial port unless its an MKII model. I was also looking as SC55s before really deciding on the SC88pro.


Thanks.


I've got the same kind of PC/Mac switch on my Korg AG-10 (Cable: http://www.korg.com/AG001 ).  I've never tried it directly to my Amigas as I assumed a specific driver would be required.  Never thought it might be just plain serial. Remembering the actual driver settings for the PC they did contain the standard Bits/Parity settings, but also things like SysEx, Aftertouch etc. Thus my assumption that there was a bit of proprietryness there.

My gut feeling is the switch just changes specific settings relative to the different serial implementations on PC and MAC 422 v 232, and is not much to do with the actual instrument interface.

Be interested if you get it to work.  I don't use my Amiga for Midi NE more only MODs and then only listening.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 04:25:13 AM by gertsy »
 

Offline bbond007Topic starter

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Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2013, 04:30:20 AM »
Quote from: gertsy;734611
Be interested if you get it to work.  I don't use my Amiga for Midi NE more only MODs and then only listening.

I'll report back either way. I figure first I'll try it the SC88 with my mac with m-audio firewire first to make sure the sc88pro works, then i'll try it with the amiga with the Midi adapter and finally try it directly connected with the various switch settings.

From what I read from the documentation, and I don't quite understand all this, but the SC88pro is like 2 midi devices and you would need a dual midi adapter(on any computer) to use all of the voices, however, that limitation does not exist with the serial interface.

Thanks,,

nate


BTW all I do with my MT32 is old dos games. Lately GODS...

Even with the SysEx thing that remaps it to GM it seems like it make a fairly crappy GM device.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsMUlMpp7Bo

fans of the Amiga game might hate it but it does grow on you.

I do like the in-game music. All sound effects are done on the roland wich is cool.

Not my video, but it sounds the same on MT32.

I think it may look a little smoother on my computer. Not as smooth as the Amiga.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 04:45:24 AM by bbond007 »
 

Offline salax54

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Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2013, 06:24:27 AM »
As the SC88 has two MIDI in ports, i'd try using it as two different MIDI instruments connected to the Amiga. But that all depends on how many OUT ports your MIDI interface has. There's a few Amiga interfaces that have 2 or 3 MIDI out ports out there. Use a sequencing software such as Music-X or Dr. T's and assign two seperate channels to your two MIDI ports of the SC. Don't go for a tracker program just yet, as they tend to be akward on the MIDI part. There used to be an editor/librarian named Midi Quest that supported the SC55 module, but it stopped Amiga releases long ago, and i'm not sure it would cooperate with the SC88 although the 55 and 88 are both GM units..
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 06:27:36 AM by salax54 »
 

Offline bbond007Topic starter

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Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2013, 07:22:33 AM »
Quote from: salax54;734618
As the SC88 has two MIDI in ports, i'd try using it as two different MIDI instruments connected to the Amiga. But that all depends on how many OUT ports your MIDI interface has. There's a few Amiga interfaces that have 2 or 3 MIDI out ports out there. Use a sequencing software such as Music-X or Dr. T's and assign two seperate channels to your two MIDI ports of the SC. Don't go for a tracker program just yet, as they tend to be akward on the MIDI part. There used to be an editor/librarian named Midi Quest that supported the SC55 module, but it stopped Amiga releases long ago, and i'm not sure it would cooperate with the SC88 although the 55 and 88 are both GM units..


My amiga midi adapter is just a solo. The midi adapter on my mac is a firewire one and I believe at least it supports dual.

I'll definitely look into Midi Quest. I do know (from the pdf) the SC88Pro has a button to emulate SC55MKII! I have also seen youtube videos were people make reference to using that button with dosbox games.

Thanks
 

Offline Ral-Clan

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Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 02:14:11 PM »
Quote from: bbond007;734608
Actually, this may help. Reading the manual I can see that the switch has 4 states.

PC-1(MAC), PC-2(MAC), PC-1(PC), PC-2(PC)

The PC-1 settings are 31.25K (bit/sec) and the PC-2 settings are 38.4K (bit/sec). Still, the difference between PC and MAC are unclear from the manual.

Hmmm.....MIDI Baud rate is definitely 31.25K.....but I remember reading that a PC's serial port was not a "flexible" one (unlike the Amiga's).  It could only do set baud rates, of which the MIDI baud rate was not one.  Therefore, PC serial port MIDI interfaces were much more complicated things that required more circuitry to translate the baud rate on the fly.  So, I don't understand your switches...

Maybe this has changed with later PC's.  Perhaps early PC serial ports could only do 38.4K and hence the need for the switch.

So I would definitely try it at 31.25K with the Amiga.  I'm not sure it will work - while Amiga interfaces had less circuitry than PC interfaces (as the Amiga could natively do 31.25K) it still had SOME circuitry which must have done something important (between the Amiga's serial port and the MIDI instrument).  Some of that might have been optical isolators.

Quote
As the SC88 has two MIDI in ports, i'd try using it as two different MIDI instruments connected to the Amiga. But that all depends on how many OUT ports your MIDI interface has. There's a few Amiga interfaces that have 2 or 3 MIDI out ports out there. Use a sequencing software such as Music-X or Dr. T's and assign two seperate channels to your two MIDI ports of the SC.

As for hooking two separate MIDI cables between the Amiga and the instrument, as some have suggested - I don't think that will work either.  What would the point be?  The interface would still transmit the same signal containing all 16 MIDI channels on both cables. Your instrument is merely set to "filter" each incoming channel to a separate patch/control within itself. My interface has three outputs, but they all just output the same MIDI signal.  Even on an interface with only one output such as yours, you can still have different parts of a song assigned to different MIDI channels, and have, for instance, a flute playing all the channel 1 notes, and a drum playing all the channel 10 notes, etc, etc. etc.

My SC55 has two MIDI inputs on it, but one's meant for getting info from a sequencer, while the other is for a controller keyboard - so you can play live to sequenced parts (if your not already feeding the live keyboard signal through the sequencer TO the SC88).

There are MIDI interfaces (Blue Ribbon's triple play) that will output a totally discreet 16 MIDI channels on each output, but theses are very rare and only supported by a handful of software titles.

I notice that the SC88 has an option to map its voices to the SC55 layout.  This might help if you ever use Bars & Pipes and the SC55 tool it has.

I really like my SC55 and would buy another one if it ever broke or got stolen.  The SC88 sounds even better.  I find it funny when/if people think of these as obsolete or old - they sound fantastic and if one can't make good music with them I think it's more a question of his/her creativity rather than the limits of the instrument.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 05:03:53 PM by ral-clan »
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Offline mbrantley

Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 03:46:30 PM »
Wow, what a coincidence. I just ordered a used SC88 as well. I also have an old Yamaha MU90 that is similar, and I plan to use both with my X1000 using BarnsPipes, and I guess I could also do same with my A1200 since I just dug out my old Midi Master interface, which attaches to the classic Amiga serial port.

Both the Yammy and Roland modules have dual MIDI inputs for 32 voices, and I have a 4x4 USB MIDI interface on the way too. I saw the PC/Mac serial connections and switches on the Yammy and assumed they would be no use to me on any Amiga gear ... but I will watch this trhead and maybe learn otherwise.

I am connecting to the OS4.1 machine with MIDI cables.
 

Offline Ral-Clan

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Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2013, 05:05:00 PM »
Quote from: mbrantley;734638
Wow, what a coincidence. I just ordered a used SC88 as well. I also have an old Yamaha MU90 that is similar, and I plan to use both with my X1000 using BarnsPipes, and I guess I could also do same with my A1200 since I just dug out my old Midi Master interface, which attaches to the classic Amiga serial port.

Both the Yammy and Roland modules have dual MIDI inputs for 32 voices, and I have a 4x4 USB MIDI interface on the way too. I saw the PC/Mac serial connections and switches on the Yammy and assumed they would be no use to me on any Amiga gear ... but I will watch this trhead and maybe learn otherwise.

I am connecting to the OS4.1 machine with MIDI cables.


Mike, what is the state of B&P on OS4?  Is it as useable as the classic version?
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Offline bbond007Topic starter

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Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2013, 05:14:40 PM »
Quote from: ral-clan;734636

I really like my SC55 and would buy another one if it ever broke or got stolen.  The SC88 sounds even better.  I find it funny when/if people think of these as obsolete or old - they sound fantastic and if one can't make good music with then I think it's more a question of his/her creativity rather than the limits of the instrument.


If people think this stuff its obsolete or old, then I think vintage Roland stuff must have a bit of a following like the Amiga. This thing was hard to get :)

There are a lot of companies out of Japan selling Roland stuff, but the SC88s have built-in power supplies and Japan is 100v, so I worry about that.

I gave up bidding on a SC55 MKII when it got too expensive.

I watched several other auctions without participating for several weeks because I had ordered a SC88 (not pro) from Sears merchant "Fast Media" (for $179) who send an email saying my item was shipped, but it never showed up.

Searching on the internet, it turns out that is FastMedia's MO. Take the money and send an email saying the Item had shipped and give N/A as a tracking number.

Sure enough, They could not produce a tracking number, and they were dragging their feet saying they needed another 7 "business days" (which is another term for 2-weeks). I called them several times, emailed them, and sent them a stack of old-skool faxes (at 2400BPS) over my MagicJack.

Somehow they were able to get it done the next day.

Now that I had closure with the Sears/Fastmedia I was able to start looking for another SC88 Pro. This SC88 came up on eBay and I watched it for days and came in and snipped it at the last minute at $203.79 with a $209 high bid.

The eBay guy has good ebay cred, so this time I'm pretty sure I finally have a SC88pro on the way. Looks to be in good condition from the picture.

Seems to be in demand :)
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 05:22:24 PM by bbond007 »
 

Offline golem

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Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2013, 07:20:19 PM »
Quote from: bbond007;734641
Seems to be in demand :)


I have a Roland XP-10 which I recall as reading is basically the same engine as a Sound Canvas (with a few original tones) although it only has 16 MIDI channels. This also has the MAC/PC mini DIN serial interface. I have had it talking to my PC through a special cable before but I have only tried MIDI with my Amiga. I think it might work. It was a revelation to me that to sync two Amiga's with OctaMED you don't need to use MIDI interfaces between them you can just use a serial cable and that works!
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 07:24:41 PM by golem »
                                                             
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Offline mbrantley

Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2013, 08:56:20 PM »
Quote from: ral-clan;734640
Mike, what is the state of B&P on OS4?  Is it as useable as the classic version?


Good news for OS4 fans is the new BNP port by Lyle Haze. He showed it working at AmiWest last year, and there is a video of his presentation online somewhere. He has updated it some more since then and has plans for updating/improving BNP more. As is right now, it is fully useable.

I ordered the SC88 from the same Amazon seller that sold me the MU90 vis Amazon (from Japan). Amazon said I would received the MU90 in weeks, but it somehow showed up (from Japan to my doorstep in the USA) two days later.
 

Offline bbond007Topic starter

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Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2013, 09:42:15 PM »
Quote from: mbrantley;734649
I ordered the SC88 from the same Amazon seller that sold me the MU90 vis Amazon (from Japan). Amazon said I would received the MU90 in weeks, but it somehow showed up (from Japan to my doorstep in the USA) two days later.

I was scared to order the sc88 from Japan, not because of the shipping cost/time, but because I was afraid of the 100v power and knowing that the PS is integrated. Did you get it yet and did you have any issue with that? Some documentation seems to suggest that it is 100-240v tolerant but that scared me. Did it need any sort of adapter?

I have also been scanning through the documentation of this linux driver called NOTEMIDI.

It is a serial midi driver for Linux. http://michaelminn.com/linux/notemidi/#toc3

At the very least the documentation verified that a the Mac modem cable with the 9->25 and NULL will work, the only difference is I'm going to use a combo. Otherwise My A1200 won't fit on its shelf. http://www.ebay.com/itm/380203662459

The source code may be of some use to me as well.
 

Offline salax54

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Re: Amiga + Roland SC88 Pro
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2013, 11:03:40 PM »
Quote from: ral-clan;734636
As for hooking two separate MIDI cables between the Amiga and the instrument, as some have suggested - I don't think that will work either.  What would the point be?  The interface would still transmit the same signal containing all 16 MIDI channels on both cables. Your instrument is merely set to "filter" each incoming channel to a separate patch/control within itself. My interface has three outputs, but they all just output the same MIDI signal.  Even on an interface with only one output such as yours, you can still have different parts of a song assigned to different MIDI channels, and have, for instance, a flute playing all the channel 1 notes, and a drum playing all the channel 10 notes, etc, etc. etc.

I actually suggested he tried it out, dunno the capabilities of the SC88 to insist on this. Even on single port MIDI interfaces you could assign tracks to different MIDI channels like you said, but if the cable only ends on the specific module, i guess the module would have to support that function.
Ok, just had a peek through the user's manual. Port A and Port B are assigned 16 different instruments. A1-A16 and B1-B16. These can also be 'flipped' to have sounds from bank A play through Port B and vice-versa.
Interesting machine nevertheless!