When emulators outperform the real deal.

[bloodline]

Yeah, but for playing classic Amiga games it sucks! For instance, the sound is not synchronous with the game.

Depends on your hardware. I have low latency audio hardware, which has has lag down at between 5ms and 12ms for OctaMED in WinUAE. If you claim to be able to hear that... You are deluding yourself.

[Ral-Clan]

Yeah, but for playing classic Amiga games it sucks! For instance, the sound is not synchronous with the game.

Seriously?  I 've heard this complaint for years, but I've NEVER experienced it (and I have both real Amigas and UAE).  I think it's just a matter of people not configuring (or at least tweaking) their UAE setup properly.  I get no controller or sound latency.  In fact, I think if I hid the PC somewhere and set up a real Amiga in front of the monitor, I could fool a real Amigan into thinking I was running from the actual hardware (the new WinUAE can even do scan-lines and CRT blur like a real 1084).

[psxphill]

I get no controller or sound latency.

You may believe that, but it is impossible.
 
On an Amiga you can change the display in realtime, so you could change one of the palette colours or play a sound and then read the joystick on every scan line and instantly change another palette colour or play another sound.
 
With usb the default polling rate is 125hz, you can increase it but I'm not aware that winuae reads the state more often than every screen refresh anyway.
 
It is very difficult to keep the sound and video synchronised because of latency in the drivers and lcd monitor. You only present an entire frame of video or audio at a time, so there will always be some form of latency.
 
You might not notice, but it is there. Some people perceive it stronger than others.

[gaula92]

You may believe that, but it is impossible.
 
On an Amiga you can change the display in realtime, so you could change one of the palette colours or play a sound and then read the joystick on every scan line and instantly change another palette colour or play another sound.
 
With usb the default polling rate is 125hz, you can increase it but I'm not aware that winuae reads the state more often than every screen refresh anyway.
 
It is very difficult to keep the sound and video synchronised because of latency in the drivers and lcd monitor. You only present an entire frame of video or audio at a time, so there will always be some form of latency.
 
You might not notice, but it is there. Some people perceive it stronger than others.

True. Outperform is one thing, but lag and performance are different concepts, often mixed up by people. You can have a program running 50x times faster and even then it can be several frames behind. In fact, less than one frame delay is enough to modify how a game control feels. I can only stand the real thing and FPGA implementations, wich have zero added delay.

[psxphill]

I can only stand the real thing and FPGA implementations, wich have zero added delay.

While I accept that there are limitations to emulation in terms of latency, I don't get the view point that the latency is actually so detrimental that it's impossible to use them.
 
I think the look of the graphics on an LCD is far more distracting, although most LCD TV's have latency as well. Unless you're using an FPGA on a 1084 then it's going to spoil the experience far more.

[gaula92]

I'm using FPGA on a CRT monitor (not a 1084 as mine died years ago, but the Minimig supports 15Hz modes and I have an SCART cable for it so I can connect it to CRT tv). The Minimig includes optional scanlines, so I don't think I could tell it from a 1084 image.

[direktorn]

While I accept that there are limitations to emulation in terms of latency, I don't get the view point that the latency is actually so detrimental that it's impossible to use them.
 
I think the look of the graphics on an LCD is far more distracting, although most LCD TV's have latency as well. Unless you're using an FPGA on a 1084 then it's going to spoil the experience far more.

We are talking 6ms or less on a modern LCD screen, an eye would never be able to spot that, I'd like to se someone with an reaction time of less than 6ms, most will not be able to respond quicker then 600ms.
 
I'm a gamer, one of the best in Battlefield2/3 and I had my share on Counter-Strike and I'd challenge anyone saying you can notice lag on my WinUAE rig.

[persia]

It's all just electrons moving through silicon, the silicon used is irrelevant if it does the job.

[psxphill]

I'm using FPGA on a CRT monitor (not a 1084 as mine died years ago, but the Minimig supports 15Hz modes and I have an SCART cable for it so I can connect it to CRT tv). The Minimig includes optional scanlines, so I don't think I could tell it from a 1084 image.

Screen curvature, black level, upscaling blur, lack of interlace flicker, dot mask.
 
Scanlines on it's own doesn't really cut it, it hides the blockiness of the image but it's far from an lcd.
 

We are talking 6ms or less on a modern LCD screen, an eye would never be able to spot that, I'd like to se someone with an reaction time of less than 6ms, most will not be able to respond quicker then 600ms.

The upscaler of alot of TV's adds lag of a few frames, which is why rythym games on modern platforms (guitar hero etc) have calibration screens so that you can reverse the effect. Even without that alot of LCD monitors will take a few frames for pixels to go from full white to full black (regardless of what the ms actually claims).

[Faerytale]

Screen curvature, black level, upscaling blur, lack of interlace flicker, dot mask.
 
Scanlines on it's own doesn't really cut it, it hides the blockiness of the image but it's far from an lcd.
 

 
The upscaler of alot of TV's adds lag of a few frames, which is why rythym games on modern platforms (guitar hero etc) have calibration screens so that you can reverse the effect. Even without that alot of LCD monitors will take a few frames for pixels to go from full white to full black (regardless of what the ms actually claims).

Thats why a native Amiga with LCD is just nothing more than en Emulator

[direktorn]

I do not upscale when I'm running Amiga games, I run them in a window.
You rarley see a game that goes from white/black instantlly and LCD has simular effects as the phosphor takes some time to change.

[Ral-Clan]

You may believe that, but it is impossible.

Well, yes.  Of course I understand that absolute zero latency is physically impossible, but there is a point where it become perceptually negligible (i.e. not perceivable) to humans.  Heck, even the human nervous system has a level of latency built in (eg. for an electro-chemical signal to travel from one's brain to one's hand for a joystick push, and then for the incoming signal to the eye to be reprocessed by the brain, for instance).  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the "human nervous system latency" was the slowest link in the whole USB-emulator-LCD chain.

I don't notice any perceivable latency in my WinUAE system as compared to my real Amiga use - even when doing timing critical tasks such as MIDI music recording in Bars & Pipes where screen updates must occur when the music notes scroll by.  And I went into this whole UAE thing very skeptical that it would be able to perform like a real Amiga in this regard - search for some of my old posts from pre-2008 and you will see I was anti-emulation and pro real hardware (heck, I still love real hardware, I've just been convinced that UAE is also up to the task if tweaked properly).

[paul1981]

I still prefer CRT's. Anyone with me on this? Yeah... CRT's don't work well with the modern OS's or the internet these days due to graphic/font anti-aliasing being on absolutely everything (which is to cater for non CRT displays of course) but I still feel they're the best for gaming. There's no latency, and the colour and contrast of CRT's still appeal to my eyes. The circuitry in CRT's drifts with age though and without adjustment ends up looking like crap, which doesn't help my case does it. LOL.
Nice to have both is what I say. We're living in an age where we're spoilt for choice... and we really shouldn't complain about choice. If we don't like modern computing then buy an old computer and download old software, or use UAE, or don't use UAE. I use both. :knuddel:

[direktorn]

I still prefer CRT's. Anyone with me on this? Yeah... CRT's don't work well with the modern OS's or the internet these days due to graphic/font anti-aliasing being on absolutely everything (which is to cater for non CRT displays of course) but I still feel they're the best for gaming. There's no latency, and the colour and contrast of CRT's still appeal to my eyes. The circuitry in CRT's drifts with age though and without adjustment ends up looking like crap, which doesn't help my case does it. LOL.
Nice to have both is what I say. We're living in an age where we're spoilt for choice... and we really shouldn't complain about choice. If we don't like modern computing then buy an old computer and download old software, or use UAE, or don't use UAE. I use both. :knuddel:

I bet you prefer vinyl over CD's or download to? ;-)
 
I guess this could be a battle between "warm" and "sharp". Analog has a tendency of being seen as a "warm" way, it goes back to analog amplifiers, vinyl etc. Digital is the nasty thing that converts everything to ugly 1's and 0's ;-)
 
But I'd prefer to use my full HD+3D projector over any CRT one, I'd prefer my warm Apple Cinema 30" display over anything analog. For me It's not about being "retro" it's about trying to a combination of old and new tech - and that combination for me is priceless.

[AmiDude]

Not sure what lag people are having, have setup a WinUAE box and it is bang on. The exact same experience I get when using my A1200 with an Indivision.

Except on the WinUAE box hardware limits are no longer an issue, especially on a modern PC.

I have it setup on a core 2 duo box which handles it really well. Super quick.

OK, can you explain which WinUae (sound) configuration you have, please?

[AmiDude]

Seriously?  I 've heard this complaint for years, but I've NEVER experienced it (and I have both real Amigas and UAE).  I think it's just a matter of people not configuring (or at least tweaking) their UAE setup properly.  I get no controller or sound latency.  In fact, I think if I hid the PC somewhere and set up a real Amiga in front of the monitor, I could fool a real Amigan into thinking I was running from the actual hardware (the new WinUAE can even do scan-lines and CRT blur like a real 1084).

The same counts for you:
Can you explain which WinUae (sound) configuration you have, please?