Project Kiwi - an 68k Homebrew Computer

[TheBilgeRat]

So I think you should all stop whining about a few extra cycles spent on memory reads and realize that in terms of performance, the 68000 and the 68008 are two drops in the bathtub you get whenif buy a decent cell phone.

I know it may make you feel very clever to compare one-off hobby projects or any non-cellphone platform that contains an ARM chip to a cell phone, but it just comes across as ignorant.  A smartphone is not a general purpose computer, even if its quad core and running at 1.6Ghz+.

When I read the OP, it made it seem as if this guy was going to do a production run of underpowered 8bit-ish "hobby" computers.  I suppose if assembling one for the express purpose of saying you did is your thing, then all the power to you.  What I find hilarious is that a one-off 8 bit hobby computer is able to have even basic network connectivity, where here in amigaland is only possible in an easy sense if you have an amiga with PCMCIA.  While some may find projects like this inspiring, I just find them sad that we have no hardware guys able to shoehorn some easily available componentry into our miggys for a reasonable price (besides Jens, and I don't really consider his prices all that reasonable, even if his hardware is nice).

More and more it seems Amiga, if compared to comic books, is not the series you enjoy to read and dog ear your favorite pages, but more the series you buy off the shelf, stick in an acid free sleeve and bring out to sell later on when you need a new bathroom.

[nicholas]

When I read the OP, it made it seem as if this guy was going to do a production run of underpowered 8bit-ish "hobby" computers.  I suppose if assembling one for the express purpose of saying you did is your thing, then all the power to you.  What I find hilarious is that a one-off 8 bit hobby computer is able to have even basic network connectivity, where here in amigaland is only possible in an easy sense if you have an amiga with PCMCIA.  While some may find projects like this inspiring, I just find them sad that we have no hardware guys able to shoehorn some easily available componentry into our miggys for a reasonable price.

More and more it seems Amiga, if compared to comic books, is not the series you enjoy to read and dog ear your favorite pages, but more the series you buy off the shelf, stick in an acid free sleeve and bring out to sell later on when you need a new bathroom.

Amen!

[nicholas]

It's a nice project, ramming together all the 80s machines.

68008 from the Sinclair QL.
V9990 is an enhanced version of the MSX2+ graphics chip (the chip was produced in the early 90s though).
SIDs from the C64.

I'd say the next step would be to use a full 68000, that 8-bit data bus is going to be holding the CPU back.

68000 would be nice.

Personally I'd be interested in a similar machine based around an Hitachi 6309.

[Linde]

I know it may make you feel very clever to compare one-off hobby projects or any non-cellphone platform that contains an ARM chip to a cell phone, but it just comes across as ignorant.

How so? If you're bent on computational performance, you have no business looking at 80s CPUs. The comparison is completely valid from a performance perspective.

A smartphone is not a general purpose computer, even if its quad core and running at 1.6Ghz+.

Not calling a smartphone a general purpose computer shows your complete ignorance of the meaning of the term. I might have agreed if you said that they're not "modular computers" or "open computers" but they are very much general purpose.

[TheBilgeRat]

How so? If you're bent on computational performance, you have no business looking at 80s CPUs. The comparison is completely valid from a performance perspective.

Its a spurious and silly comparison.  "OMG it can't outperform teh Droid phonez!" is not what the critique was about.  A standard 68000 or 68010 has 64 pins - that's hardly an unmanageable amount of pins.  If 8 bit is all that is wanted, fine - the 68008 is perfectly fine.  

Not calling a smartphone a general purpose computer shows your complete ignorance of the meaning of the term. I might have agreed if you said that they're not "modular computers" or "open computers" but they are very much general purpose.

This forum and amigans in general are fans of making retarded cellphone comparisons whenever performance or architecture things are brought up (rpi, odroid, ouya, etc etc), as if I can take my cellphone and easily install any operating system I want, utilize the bus to drive additional hardware, install keyboards and mice and larger screens easily, install whatever software I want easily, compile on it, etc.  They are not general purpose, they are radio receivers that also allow you some compute functionality.

[Linde]

Its a spurious and silly comparison.  "OMG it can't outperform teh Droid phonez!" is not what the critique was about.  A standard 68000 or 68010 has 64 pins - that's hardly an unmanageable amount of pins.  If 8 bit is all that is wanted, fine - the 68008 is perfectly fine.

I'm not saying "OMG it can't outperform teh Droid phonez!". I'm saying that dismissing what is so obviously a hobbyist system not meant to compete in terms of performance in any way whatsoever on the basis of bad performance compared to a slightly faster stone-age CPU is totally ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as bringing ARMs to the table.

And of course he wanted an 8-bit bus. Would he blindly pick a CPU and build a working system around it not knowing its bus width?

This forum and amigans in general are fans of making retarded cellphone comparisons whenever performance or architecture things are brought up (rpi, odroid, ouya, etc etc), as if I can take my cellphone and easily install any operating system I want, utilize the bus to drive additional hardware, install keyboards and mice and larger screens easily, install whatever software I want easily, compile on it, etc.  They are not general purpose, they are radio receivers that also allow you some compute functionality.

General purpose computers existed long before computer keyboards, mice, large screens and compilers. Those things are totally irrelevant to the concept of general purpose computers, but sure, I get what you are trying to say. You just aren't familiar with the terminology.

[TheBilgeRat]

General purpose computers existed long before computer keyboards, mice, large screens and compilers. Those things are totally irrelevant to the concept of general purpose computers, but sure, I get what you are trying to say. You just aren't familiar with the terminology.

Sure, they are called brains.  Hell, throw in the abacus, the slide rule and  Babbage's Difference engine.  You are just being pedantic and argumentative.  So, try not throwing out cellphone analogies (they don't fit), blindly jumping from single core CISC chips lacking mmu/fpu/pipelining/superscalar architectures (at least in the 68000 area) to quad core RISC architectures to prove some lame point about "power", and making non-relevant asides about fictitious "concepts" of "general purpose" computers... unless you have a link to an academic paper backing your snobbery up, that is - in which case I would be more than happy to read it.

EDIT:  I wonder if it can run OS4:

[youtube]KlRoZ0zTXvw[/youtube]

[Linde]

Sure, they are called brains.  Hell, throw in the abacus, the slide rule and  Babbage's Difference engine.  You are just being pedantic and argumentative.  So, try not throwing out cellphone analogies (they don't fit), blindly jumping from single core CISC chips lacking mmu/fpu/pipelining/superscalar architectures (at least in the 68000 area) to quad core RISC architectures to prove some lame point about "power", and making non-relevant asides about fictitious "concepts" of "general purpose" computers... unless you have a link to an academic paper backing your snobbery up, that is - in which case I would be more than happy to read it.

Haha, do you doubt the fact that general purpose computing is a concept? Maybe you could link to an academic paper supporting your idea that cellphone analogies don't fit. Maybe that idea just based on a totally arbitrary threshold that only exists in your head.

But hey let's talk single core CISC. Pentium III?

[nicholas]

This forum and amigans in general are fans of making retarded cellphone comparisons whenever performance or architecture things are brought up (rpi, odroid, ouya, etc etc), as if I can take my cellphone and easily install any operating system I want, utilize the bus to drive additional hardware, install keyboards and mice and larger screens easily, install whatever software I want easily, compile on it, etc.  They are not general purpose, they are radio receivers that also allow you some compute functionality.

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=889433

[TheBilgeRat]

Haha, do you doubt the fact that general purpose computing is a concept? Maybe you could link to an academic paper supporting your idea that cellphone analogies don't fit. Maybe that idea just based on a totally arbitrary threshold that only exists in your head.

But hey let's talk single core CISC. Pentium III?

I Will!  Just as soon as I get it published in "Cantankerous Gits Monthly" along with a paper I have in mind about low slung jeans and that crappy Hippity Hop music.  Git Offah Mah Lawn!

Here I am responding to Nicholas' link to the Ubuntu Phone Edition link:



Kids these days - BAH!

[Iggy]

... The 68008 is rather weak for a main CPU considering the other add-ons. A Fido or ColdFire wouldn't be much more expensive and makes more sense in a lot of ways.

I like the idea of a simple Coldfire system.
Using a PCI video card like a Voodoo3 the system could be powerful enough for an AROS port.
In fact, much of the work done on the 68K version should be easy to re-write.

I have two 200MHz Coldfire CPUs that support PCI. They only cost about $20.
233MHz versions run about $25.

[psxphill]

So a byte wide bus means you need to use at least 2 extra cycles per instruction on a 68008 compared to a 68000. If it makes your machine easier to construct then by all means go for it, but it is like tieing one hand on your back.

I'm not sure. For most instructions the 68000 only accesses the bus every two cycles, where it fetches 2 bytes. I am too lazy to check, but it would not surprise me if the 68008 accesses the bus on every cycle. So it might not make much difference.

[Iggy]

...
Personally I'd be interested in a similar machine based around an Hitachi 6309.

That would interest me too.
I have three 63C09s sitting in my spare parts bin (and another installed in an Atari 130XE).
I looked at the predecessor of that Yamaha VDP years ago.
They have overlay and sprite support.

How about multiple 63C09Es running at 3.56 MHz with interleaved memory access? After all, really fast memory is available, and with individual caches the processors could all share the same memory.

SIDs tied to a multitasking system with decent graphics?
Sounds neat.
And I can handle 6809/6309 assembly code.

[persia]

Yes, why didn't he put an Intel Core i7 on it? I mean, most things are crappier. :juggler:

Yes. Great suggestion.

[Steady]

@psxphill

Oh cool. I didn't know that. Still a brilliant achievement.

[matthey]

I like the idea of a simple Coldfire system.
Using a PCI video card like a Voodoo3 the system could be powerful enough for an AROS port.
In fact, much of the work done on the 68K version should be easy to re-write.

I have two 200MHz Coldfire CPUs that support PCI. They only cost about $20.
233MHz versions run about $25.

The ColdFire is nice because of the SoC capabilities which are old but fine for a hobby project. The Fido is actually more interesting to me as a CPU and I'm surprised no hobbyists have tried to do anything with it. My main Amiga is a 68060@75MHz with Mediator+Voodoo 4. Despite the slow PCI gfx bus (~8 MB/s), I can load Quake in about 30 seconds and get about 25 fps in 640x480x16 full screen with QuakeGL. I think 30fps would be possible with more optimized code. That's not bad for 90s era hardware .