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Offline freqmax

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2013, 10:57:09 PM »
I think there are some factory "burn in" test software?
 

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2013, 11:29:17 PM »
Quote from: Mr_Vanos;722135
I tried plugging a mouse into the mouse port and attempting to bring up the early boot menu. That didn't work. I did monitor the serial data out of U975/U976 and I believe they are working correctly given the set of inputs they have going to them, so I don't think that's the problem in my case. I am tempted to throw the CIAs on there, just because I have them. I have a couple of PLCC sockets to fit as well, so it's not a big deal for me to do. Couldn't hurt to try. ;)


Sorry I didn't read your fist post carefully enough at first and only noticed now that you have video signal of some sort which means it is not the same problem I had.

When socketing PLCCs you may notice that sockets and motherboard pads are not aligned perfectly with either one not following the standard properly. So it requires very careful insertion and careful first soldering to make it freeze correctly without making a short circuit by PLCC pin touching 2 pads instead of one. Also if not paste soldering PLCC sockets then the tricky part is to hand solder through PLCC holes with minimum size solder tip. Especially corners are tricky. I didn't want to use paste soldering because I didn't want to heat the motherboard and its components all around. But anyway I believe you know these things well too.

Make sure those Kickstart 3.0 chips are not accidentally mixed, reversed, pins bent under or scratched motherboard traces under them. This is a place where previous owners often touch with their tools. In a hurry plug valueless Kickstart 3.0 chips so they can sell more valuable Kickstart 3.1 chips separately.

I would start by trying with another ROMs and another CPU card. Seeing some high resolution pictures of the motherboards might rule out something too.
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Offline mechy

Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2013, 11:42:54 PM »
I always start at the psu. Are all the voltages good?
Check the motherboard connector.the yellow +5 pin is known to corrode as if its been hot and not make contact. sometimes the motherboard female pins spread also causing a no/bad contact problem.

Assuming they are ok,i check all the jumpers. Its a good idea to move the motherboard jumpers on their pins as i have had tarnished ones not making good contact in the past. Verify they are all in proper default positions.the INT/EXT motherboard jumpers should be set INT on both for the warpengine..

Check the jumpers on the warp engine and make sure you have a scsi hd hooked to it with proper termination.from memory it will still boot just fine w/o a hd,but i want to be sure i tell you right and a drive present is a safe bet. Jumpers are here: http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/warpengine

One wrong jumper somewhere can cause no boot and ruin your day.

Pay particular attention to ram and if possible stick 4 good simms preferably of the same size in the warp engine and set the jumpers accordingly.(ram only need be in 2 proper sockets technically,but using 4 eliminates any question of which sockets to use).

install the warp engine(be sure its fully seated) and power up.Keep in mind if no ide drives and floppy are present,3.1 roms delay boot a long time.

if this still is not working,you might try swapping the 3x roms from socket to socket,they may just be in the wrong sockets.verify they are A4000 roms, i have had 4000's where people installed A1200 roms etc.

 look at the battery area for corrosion on nearby chips for damaged traces.

if that is ok, it could be caps leaking. i have fixed a good few boards that had traces eaten that run under some caps.removing caps and checking for continuity on traces that run under is a good idea before installing new ones. they are notorious around the audio circuit.

Still no go? If it helps i am in texas and could be willing to take a look at it as a last resort. time is short for me always but i will try and help.

meanwhile it would be a good idea to have a known good kbd, the suggested flashing caps key check is useful. you can adapt a 2000/3000 kbd with a common pc din to ps2 adapter if you have one.

Good luck


Mech
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 11:47:46 PM by mechy »
 

Offline Castellen

Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2013, 08:36:35 AM »
Quote from: freqmax;722121
What protection does modern computers have that Commodore missed?


This is a bit off topic, but the subject of ESD protection applies to any piece of electronics.  These days we tend to use a wide range of devices that often uses a combination of resistor-capacitor networks and special fast acting diodes.  Good designs are tested with a 12kV human body model that simulates a human finger causing static discharge into anything you can touch normally, e.g. connector pins.  The usual aim is to meet or exceed European Standard EN301 489-34.

As for a basic diagnostic ROM; yes - it would be useful depending on the hardware fault.  The trouble is that a bulk of the hardware needs to be working properly in order to correctly execute anything from ROM.  Most of the things that a simple diagnostic ROM would verify can generally be done by physical measurements anyway.  And you'd often be in the situation where you'd want it to check something else, or go a bit further or whatever.  Ideally you'd have dozens of different ROMs to help diagnose a range of faults and test different areas, but of course you'd need quite a bit of spare time to develop and test it all.  But then you need working hardware to test it on in the first place.

If you have a 32 bit logic analyser capable of caputuring specific address bus events (and a spare day to connect it) then I can send you my diagnostic ROM which would do what you want and more.  The trouble is that it would still be complex to use without the special hardware to receive the debugging information sent out.
 

Offline freqmax

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2013, 09:06:30 AM »
A test ROM could simple send it's output on the serial port.
Serial - OK
CPU - OK
ChipRAM - OK
Paula - OK
Denise - OK
etc..
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2013, 12:12:36 PM »
I had the same problem as you.  Black screen is not good and suggest some major hardware fault.

The diagnosis was corrosion of the motherboard: acid and water.

I sent the motherboard for repair to a guy in New Zealand.  He fixed it and it still works.

Last I heard was he was in in Antarctica!

Anthony Hoffman I think his name was. Last email I have was :ahoffman@clear.net.nz
 

Offline Framiga

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2013, 12:29:58 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;722194
I had the same problem as you.  Black screen is not good and suggest some major hardware fault.

The diagnosis was corrosion of the motherboard: acid and water.

I sent the motherboard for repair to a guy in New Zealand.  He fixed it and it still works.

Last I heard was he was in in Antarctica!

Anthony Hoffman I think his name was. Last email I have was :ahoffman@clear.net.nz

Castellen is Anthony Hoffman (2 posts above) :-)
 

Offline Castellen

Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2013, 09:06:06 PM »
Yes, I'm stuck here in Antarctica for the next 9 months or so; I expect to resume Amiga repair work when I return to NZ in November.  It's kind of sad being stuck here with no Amigas, just annoying windows boxes with no useful software and a 32kbps satellite data link.  Hence WinUAE gets a lot of use, no idea what I'd do without PageStream, CubicIDE, etc.


Quote from: freqmax;722189
A test ROM could simple send it's output on the serial port.
Serial - OK
CPU - OK
ChipRAM - OK
Paula - OK
Denise - OK
etc..


Agreed, that would be incredibly helpful in the right situation.  Unfortunately the UART (the bit that makes the serial port work) lives in Paula.  And for Paula to work, it first needs valid clocks that are divided and generated by both Alice and Lisa, so the bulk of the video sub-system needs to be working.  And Paula lives on the other half of the Amiga sub-system on the chip memory bus side.  And to talk to that, the data bridge needs to be completely working in both directions (Bridgette in the A4000).  And to talk to that, the address decoder (Gary) needs to be working.  And to talk to that, the entire CPU subsystem needs to be working.  And... hey that's most of the computer already.

The best ChipRAM diagnostic is to remove the SIMM.  As we all know, quite early on in the standard ROM software, it does a basic ChipRAM write/read test and turns the screen green if it's unhappy.  So if that's not working, it's probably a simple but fundamental problem causing everything not to work.  Unfortunately because the operation of any one sub-system relies on most other sub-systems to be working, you can chase yourself in circles looking for the fault.  Sometimes the best approach is to compare various signals with a known working system.  This is extremely time consuming, but I've repaired many difficult non-booting faults in this way.

The other way is to replace various bits with known good bits - also known as the 'shotgun' approach.  The problems there are that you need a source of known good bits, and you need to make sure all of your soldering work is 100% else you'll introduce new problems which simply compond with the original one.  Also, this doesn't help at all in finding PCB related faults, which are fortunately rare except in case of battery and capacitor corrosion - unfortunately which are common in the A4000.

Sorry for possibly sounding negative, but that's the harsh reality of the situation.

One possibly useful piece of basic diagnostic ROM software you could develop if you had time, would be to toggle a pin in the Centronics port.  This only requires a working CPU sub-system, address decoder, CIA U350 and most system clocks.  i.e. the computer would only need to be about two-thirds working properly for the diagnostic software to run.

But seriously, if there's been any form of battery corrosion, start with removing both U177 and U178 - the computer doesn't need them to boot.  Replace both U975 and U976 and verify the integrity of all connections to these shift registers (primarily the clock and data lines) are all correct.  It's a bit of a blind stab in the dark, but this area is a very common cause of non-booting faults in the event of battery corrosion.  Even if everything visually "looks" OK.

Also check the analogue bias voltage is around +2.4V on U400/Paula pins 33 and 34.  Capacitor corrosion does bad things to the op-amp U402 which can ruin the bias in the entire analogue stage which can sometimes cause Paula to do some very unusual things.
 

Offline Plaz

Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2013, 10:22:09 PM »
Quote from: Mr_Vanos;721159
A couple years ago I acquired an A4000 with fairly typical battery acid damage

Yes a dead CIA can zombie the system. In many cases you'll notice one running much hotter that the other. Seen it a couple of times. The more typical CIA failure lets the system boot and just keeps the floppy from working. Did any of the battery damage make it over to the sim sockets... even a little? I've seen that cause rot under sockets also leading to problems.

Plaz
 

Offline magnetic

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2013, 03:39:21 AM »
Quote from: Plaz;722245
Yes a dead CIA can zombie the system. In many cases you'll notice one running much hotter that the other. Seen it a couple of times.

Plaz



This is accurate, generally bad chips run hotter than good ones, so you can spot bad ones by this. However, generally the amiga will boot with a bad cia no?
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Offline Plaz

Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2013, 05:04:39 AM »
Quote from: magnetic;722261
However, generally the amiga will boot with a bad cia no?


Generally yes, but there are always exceptions. I've repaired one 2000, one 3000, two 1200's and one 4000 in the past that would not boot at all because of a dead CIA. A small percentage of my total repairs for sure, but still possible.

If there is no screen flicker or color at power on, I'm also very suspicious of the health of the CPU. Also make sure the CPU jumpers are set properly. A search should turn that info up quickly.

Plaz
 

Offline Mr_VanosTopic starter

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2013, 10:28:34 PM »
Quote from: mechy;722143
I always start at the psu. Are all the voltages good?
Check the motherboard connector.the yellow +5 pin is known to corrode as if its been hot and not make contact. sometimes the motherboard female pins spread also causing a no/bad contact problem.

Assuming they are ok,i check all the jumpers. Its a good idea to move the motherboard jumpers on their pins as i have had tarnished ones not making good contact in the past. Verify they are all in proper default positions.the INT/EXT motherboard jumpers should be set INT on both for the warpengine..

Check the jumpers on the warp engine and make sure you have a scsi hd hooked to it with proper termination.from memory it will still boot just fine w/o a hd,but i want to be sure i tell you right and a drive present is a safe bet. Jumpers are here: http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/warpengine

One wrong jumper somewhere can cause no boot and ruin your day.

Pay particular attention to ram and if possible stick 4 good simms preferably of the same size in the warp engine and set the jumpers accordingly.(ram only need be in 2 proper sockets technically,but using 4 eliminates any question of which sockets to use).

install the warp engine(be sure its fully seated) and power up.Keep in mind if no ide drives and floppy are present,3.1 roms delay boot a long time.

if this still is not working,you might try swapping the 3x roms from socket to socket,they may just be in the wrong sockets.verify they are A4000 roms, i have had 4000's where people installed A1200 roms etc.

 look at the battery area for corrosion on nearby chips for damaged traces.

if that is ok, it could be caps leaking. i have fixed a good few boards that had traces eaten that run under some caps.removing caps and checking for continuity on traces that run under is a good idea before installing new ones. they are notorious around the audio circuit.

Still no go? If it helps i am in texas and could be willing to take a look at it as a last resort. time is short for me always but i will try and help.

meanwhile it would be a good idea to have a known good kbd, the suggested flashing caps key check is useful. you can adapt a 2000/3000 kbd with a common pc din to ps2 adapter if you have one.

Good luck


Mech


Excellent info. Now that you mention it, I think that the jumpers on the motherboard you mentioned are set to EXT instead of INT. I'll move those and try again. The ROMs were swapped and I swapped them to the right position, so that was definitely a problem before, but still no go. Still, I'll try the jumpers again tonight.
 

Offline Mr_VanosTopic starter

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2013, 10:30:31 PM »
Quote from: Plaz;722245
Yes a dead CIA can zombie the system. In many cases you'll notice one running much hotter that the other. Seen it a couple of times. The more typical CIA failure lets the system boot and just keeps the floppy from working. Did any of the battery damage make it over to the sim sockets... even a little? I've seen that cause rot under sockets also leading to problems.

Plaz


Oh yeah, the acid got as far as the fast ram sockets... so there's definitely concern there. I have RAM installed on the Warp Engine and the chip RAM but no on board fast RAM.
 

Offline danbeaver

Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2013, 11:13:01 PM »
Ed Jeffreys of Video Labs in Mission, KS repairs A4000's if that is any help.
 

Offline rrete

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2013, 12:13:42 AM »
Jumpers factory default, try with an A3400 68030 w or wout copro .
Maybe problem is in cpu card or slot
hope this help you
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Offline magnetic

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #29 from previous page: January 16, 2013, 01:37:42 AM »
Quote from: rrete;722688
Jumpers factory default, try with an A3400 68030 w or wout copro .
Maybe problem is in cpu card or slot
hope this help you



We wouldnt need to guess if the CPU is good or not if he does the CAPS LOCK trick I said earlier. This determines if the cpu is the problem or not.
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