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Offline Mr_VanosTopic starter

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Need help fixing A4000
« on: January 03, 2013, 08:25:25 PM »
Hi all... long time lurker here!

A couple years ago I acquired an A4000 with fairly typical battery acid damage from the clock battery, and I set about to fix it shortly afterwards. Frustrated, I put it away and now I have the bug to fix it again. The symptoms I've got are: black screen... that's it. The black screen does have sync at both 50Hz and 60Hz rates depending on how the PAL/NTSC jumper is set on the Alice. I have done a bit of probing around the board but as this is the first AGA based Amiga I've ever tried to repair (and also only the second A4000 I've ever seen... the first was in a Commodore dealer in Denver when it was first introduced), I'm mostly stumbling around to find a solution.

The board I've got has a Super Buster -11 on it, KS 3.0 ROMs, I have a WarpEngine clocked at 28MHz with a 25MHz '040 on it, 2MB SIMM in the chip RAM slot, nothing in the fast RAM slots (and given the damage to the board, I'm doubtful fast RAM will work). The Warp Engine has four SIMMs on it, so it does have some local bus RAM apart from the chip RAM.

I get a black screen regardless of whether or not chip RAM is installed (if I read various guides right, a green screen can be expected if the chip RAM is missing). I've checked the power rails from the power supply and they seem to be all good including the power good signal, I see the system attempting to shift things out of the clock port shift register... data lines on the CPU expansion port wiggle for a few seconds and stop (presumably filling up cache RAM and then stopping). I've recapped most of the board, but no luck thus far.

I was hoping that there existed some ROMable diagnostics I could burn and replace the Kickstart with to help aid in this, but AFAIK none exist. It even seems like ROMwack was removed from later KS > 1.3 which would have been somewhat helpful.

I do have a couple of brand-new CIA chips. Will a bad CIA exhibit this behavior? If so, I'd be inclined to throw those on the board and give it a whirl. Ideally I'd like to have a spare CPU board (A3640 or A3630) to test with since I have no idea if the warp engine is even good.

I have access to SMT soldering equipment at work, oscilloscope, and EEPROM/PAL/GAL burner at work.

Any pointers from veteran A4000 fixers is greatly appreciated.
 

Offline magnetic

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2013, 01:33:40 AM »
Hey sorry about your problems. Did you try another cpu board? When you power the unit up press the Caps Lock repeatedly. Tell me if they light stays lit after like 7 hits.. this diagnoses cpu.. Even with a bad CIA it should boot afaik. I wouldnt just willy nilly change cias unless you know thats the culprit.  And no there is no "romable diagnostic" roms.
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Offline Mr_VanosTopic starter

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2013, 04:41:28 AM »
Quote from: magnetic;721173
Hey sorry about your problems. Did you try another cpu board? When you power the unit up press the Caps Lock repeatedly. Tell me if they light stays lit after like 7 hits.. this diagnoses cpu.. Even with a bad CIA it should boot afaik. I wouldnt just willy nilly change cias unless you know thats the culprit.  And no there is no "romable diagnostic" roms.

I'm still in the process of looking for a spare CPU board to swap in. I put a feeler out on the marketplace forum to see if anyone had one.

As for the keyboard thing, I did read about that as well. I don't have a Commodore Amiga keyboard, instead I've got a Northgate Omnikey/101. It is configured for Amiga mode, but I've never seen it work with any Amiga. The 4000 is all I have apart from a broken A1200 motherboard too.

EDIT: To answer your question though, pressing the caps lock key repeatedly does nothing.
 

Offline magnetic

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2013, 07:07:13 AM »
Does the Caps Lock key light at all?

I have a nice A3640 board for sale.
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Offline Castellen

Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2013, 08:37:59 AM »
Quote from: magnetic;721173
And no there is no "romable diagnostic" roms.


There are diagnostic ROMs available for the A4000, I forget who wrote the software.  The French chap 'Cosmos' was trying to sell copies at one point.  I suspect they would generally not be useful as the hardware needs to be mostly functional to run the software from ROM of course.  The diagnostics appeared to perform some fairly basic functional tests on system I/O, video, etc.  The same kind of thing you'd be able to fault find with a blind monkey and an oscilloscope.

I developed my own diagnostic hardware and software for the A4000 a few years back to aid with many repairs.  It runs custom software from ROM which communicates over the system data and address bus to a piece of hardware that sends progress codes to the serial port of another Amiga that decodes and displays the information to show where the software fails to communicate with sections of hardware.  Works well and have used it many times for the repair of 'dead' boards.  Unfortunately it would be far too much time and effort to turn into a commercial product, given the extremely specialised use and therefore low sales volume.  And unfortunately I lack the time to write enough usable documentation for anyone to build a usable reproduction of the hardware, which is reasonably complex.


As for fault finding the said A4000... yes, certainly the first step is testing with a known good CPU board, even an A3630 is fine.  Of course make sure that the two clock source jumpers are set correctly according to the CPU board.  Check the ROMs aren't in backwards or the two ICs are swapped or anything stupid.  Check ROMs don't have any bent/broken pins.

Bad CIAs can certainly cause boot failure as described, but then again so can a failure of just about every other bit of custom silicon on the board.  CIA failure is unlikely if you know the history of the machine and nothing silly has been plugged into the Centronics port.

Check the status of the various reset lines, all of which are active low.  i.e. the system will only run when _reset = 5V.

Check that all of the various system clocks are present.  Check carefully for corroded/open circuit vias around the real time clock area.  If certain input lines are floating, the hardware can sit in an undetermined state.  Had an interesting fault recently where battery corrosion damaged the mouse data shift register U975 which caused the mouse data line to be floating, which caused Lisa/U450 not to generate the 14MHz clock, which resulted in Alice/U211 not generating the 7MHz clock which resulted in Gary/U150 holding the system in reset state.

Check the RTC/U178 is not getting warm.  When it gets badly damaged from corrosion it can go into a state where it just draws loads of current and causes a bus hangup and therefore a boot failure.  Remove U177 (RTC latch) if there's any signs of corrosion around the RTC circuit, this can cause an address bus hangup if damaged.  The system will boot normally without U177 and/or U178 fitted.

And yes, you should get an instant green screen with no chip memory fitted.  The hardware needs to have all reset lines inactive (5V) and clocks present for this to work.

In general, there's much that could go wrong.  I wrote a basic bit of fault finding info for A3000 non-booting issues here years ago that may help a little more.

Hope that helps.
 

Offline Mr_VanosTopic starter

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2013, 03:32:55 PM »
Quote from: Castellen;721198
There are diagnostic ROMs available for the A4000, I forget who wrote the software.  The French chap 'Cosmos' was trying to sell copies at one point.  I suspect they would generally not be useful as the hardware needs to be mostly functional to run the software from ROM of course.  The diagnostics appeared to perform some fairly basic functional tests on system I/O, video, etc.  The same kind of thing you'd be able to fault find with a blind monkey and an oscilloscope.

I developed my own diagnostic hardware and software for the A4000 a few years back to aid with many repairs.  It runs custom software from ROM which communicates over the system data and address bus to a piece of hardware that sends progress codes to the serial port of another Amiga that decodes and displays the information to show where the software fails to communicate with sections of hardware.  Works well and have used it many times for the repair of 'dead' boards.  Unfortunately it would be far too much time and effort to turn into a commercial product, given the extremely specialised use and therefore low sales volume.  And unfortunately I lack the time to write enough usable documentation for anyone to build a usable reproduction of the hardware, which is reasonably complex.


As for fault finding the said A4000... yes, certainly the first step is testing with a known good CPU board, even an A3630 is fine.  Of course make sure that the two clock source jumpers are set correctly according to the CPU board.  Check the ROMs aren't in backwards or the two ICs are swapped or anything stupid.  Check ROMs don't have any bent/broken pins.

Bad CIAs can certainly cause boot failure as described, but then again so can a failure of just about every other bit of custom silicon on the board.  CIA failure is unlikely if you know the history of the machine and nothing silly has been plugged into the Centronics port.

Check the status of the various reset lines, all of which are active low.  i.e. the system will only run when _reset = 5V.

Check that all of the various system clocks are present.  Check carefully for corroded/open circuit vias around the real time clock area.  If certain input lines are floating, the hardware can sit in an undetermined state.  Had an interesting fault recently where battery corrosion damaged the mouse data shift register U975 which caused the mouse data line to be floating, which caused Lisa/U450 not to generate the 14MHz clock, which resulted in Alice/U211 not generating the 7MHz clock which resulted in Gary/U150 holding the system in reset state.

Check the RTC/U178 is not getting warm.  When it gets badly damaged from corrosion it can go into a state where it just draws loads of current and causes a bus hangup and therefore a boot failure.  Remove U177 (RTC latch) if there's any signs of corrosion around the RTC circuit, this can cause an address bus hangup if damaged.  The system will boot normally without U177 and/or U178 fitted.

And yes, you should get an instant green screen with no chip memory fitted.  The hardware needs to have all reset lines inactive (5V) and clocks present for this to work.

In general, there's much that could go wrong.  I wrote a basic bit of fault finding info for A3000 non-booting issues here years ago that may help a little more.

Hope that helps.


All good information... thanks. I'll check out your guide. Yeah, an A3630 or 3640 would be useful, if anything to just determine if everything else is good. Back when I tested it before it appeared that all the power rails, resets, and clocks were working. Those are usually the first things I check when I'm looking at a dead board (I troubleshoot and fix a variety of hardware for fun, from arcade game boards to dead computers).  I think I even checked the shift register you're referring to with an O-scope to make sure the data was good coming out of it. Nothing's hot on the board, so I don't think anything is shorting out.

I figured it would be nice if there was a simple ROM that would just twiddle some I/O or do a serial port console for reading/writing memory locations.
 

Offline Mr_VanosTopic starter

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2013, 03:42:00 PM »
Magnetic: I just tried to PM you and your mailbox is full.
 

Offline Mr_VanosTopic starter

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2013, 03:57:29 PM »
Quote from: Castellen;721198


Bad CIAs can certainly cause boot failure as described, but then again so can a failure of just about every other bit of custom silicon on the board.  CIA failure is unlikely if you know the history of the machine and nothing silly has been plugged into the Centronics port.


I know next to nothing about the history of the machine except that it came from NASA via a government surplus auction. It had a NASA asset tag on the front when I purchased it. My guess is it may have seen use at NASA TV since it was fitted with a Video Toaster 4000. Marshall Space Flight Center is nearby and I believe NASA TV is run at same.
 

Offline scuzzb494

Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2013, 10:26:06 PM »
Sounds like the CPU card is not seating properly along its full length.

Offline Hanzu

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2013, 07:28:41 AM »
Quote from: Mr_Vanos;721159

I get a black screen regardless of whether or not chip RAM is installed


Try plugging mouse to mouse port and then to joystick port and see if you get any video signal. If possible also try plugging mouse and joystick simultaneously or even better two mouses.

This may sound like a joke but helped me to repair one A4000 Rev B after first trying to find the faulty part myself and with the great help from Castellen.

My A4000 Rev B symptoms:
Since I only got black screen with no video signal. I never bothered to plug in mouse or joystick, but when I did they closed the circuit somehow and gave classic "Insert disk image of Kickstart 3.1". Then I held both mouse buttons to get to Early Startup Menu and notices mouse buttons worked but mouse pointer did not. This gave me boots to change U975 and U976 which I had not changed yet, because they looked ok with no leakage around them.

After changing U975 and U976 A4000 Rev B started to operate normally! Either one of these troublemakers managed to not only prevent boot but also to kill video signal too which fooled me to think there was some bigger problems so before finding the fault I had already PLCC socketed and changed both CIAs, Paula, Super Buster and U460 (video DAC?).

Changing CIAs is very often suggested but believe when Castellen suggested is that that they require someone using Parallel or Serial ports to accidentally break them. Some decades ago I broke A500 CIA by hot unplugging laplink or was it null modem cable. After seeing broken U975 and U976 I am not than eager to hot plugging or unplugging mouse or joysticks either. People plug and unplug them like USB ports for some 10 years which may cause damage eventually. If you disagree feel free to pass on your arguments. :)
A4000 CR Rev D "Lian-Li Towered"+CSPPC 060 66MHz+Mediator+XSurf100 with USB+ZorRAM 256MB+Radeon 9200 256MB etc., A4000 original Rev B+CSPPC 060 50MHz+PIV etc., A4000 Rev B mobo, A4000T mobo+CSPPC 060 50 MHz, A4000T mobo, CD32, several A1200s, 2xA600, A500 Plus, A2000 Rev 6.2, several A500s with one ACA500+, Falcon 030, 1040STe, 1040STFM, 2xSVI X'PRESS (one MSX2+ modded), several C64s, 2xC128, 2x128D, C64 Reloaded MK2 and a big game collection.
 

Offline Castellen

Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2013, 06:52:44 PM »
Quote from: Hanzu;722065
After seeing broken U975 and U976 I am not than eager to hot plugging or unplugging mouse or joysticks either. People plug and unplug them like USB ports for some 10 years which may cause damage eventually. If you disagree feel free to pass on your arguments. :)


The primary issue you're likely to run into when hot connecting mouse/joysticks is if the plug has a metal shroud on the connector.  It's very easy to misalign the 9-way connector and short the pin on the port that carry +5V to the chassis, which either blows the +5V_User fuse depending on what machine you have, or can cause open circuit tracks in A4000/A4000T due to the slow reaction time of the polyswitch fuse.

So that's why most joysticks, etc, have plastic around the outer edges of the mating part of the connector as opposed to metal.

The 25-way Amiga serial port carries +5V and +12V on two pins as well, and serial port connectors nearly always have the metal shroud.  So it's a good idea to power off the machine prior to connecting to the serial port.  The Centronics port isn't so bad as it has a female connector at the computer.

There's also the possibility of ESD (electrostatic discharge) damage to the port.  The ESD protection in C='s designs generally aren't great, so it's also possible to damage things by plugging in connectors even when the computer is powered off.  For this reason, always touch the computer chassis first to discharge yourself prior to messing with any connectors.
 

Offline freqmax

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2013, 07:02:54 PM »
Quote from: Castellen;722118
The ESD protection in C='s designs generally aren't great, so it's also possible to damage things by plugging in connectors even when the computer is powered off.


What protection does modern computers have that Commodore missed?
 

Offline Mr_VanosTopic starter

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2013, 10:30:24 PM »
Quote from: Hanzu;722065
Try plugging mouse to mouse port and then to joystick port and see if you get any video signal. If possible also try plugging mouse and joystick simultaneously or even better two mouses.

This may sound like a joke but helped me to repair one A4000 Rev B after first trying to find the faulty part myself and with the great help from Castellen.

My A4000 Rev B symptoms:
Since I only got black screen with no video signal. I never bothered to plug in mouse or joystick, but when I did they closed the circuit somehow and gave classic "Insert disk image of Kickstart 3.1". Then I held both mouse buttons to get to Early Startup Menu and notices mouse buttons worked but mouse pointer did not. This gave me boots to change U975 and U976 which I had not changed yet, because they looked ok with no leakage around them.

After changing U975 and U976 A4000 Rev B started to operate normally! Either one of these troublemakers managed to not only prevent boot but also to kill video signal too which fooled me to think there was some bigger problems so before finding the fault I had already PLCC socketed and changed both CIAs, Paula, Super Buster and U460 (video DAC?).

Changing CIAs is very often suggested but believe when Castellen suggested is that that they require someone using Parallel or Serial ports to accidentally break them. Some decades ago I broke A500 CIA by hot unplugging laplink or was it null modem cable. After seeing broken U975 and U976 I am not than eager to hot plugging or unplugging mouse or joysticks either. People plug and unplug them like USB ports for some 10 years which may cause damage eventually. If you disagree feel free to pass on your arguments. :)


I tried plugging a mouse into the mouse port and attempting to bring up the early boot menu. That didn't work. I did monitor the serial data out of U975/U976 and I believe they are working correctly given the set of inputs they have going to them, so I don't think that's the problem in my case. I am tempted to throw the CIAs on there, just because I have them. I have a couple of PLCC sockets to fit as well, so it's not a big deal for me to do. Couldn't hurt to try. ;)
 

Offline Mr_VanosTopic starter

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2013, 10:31:27 PM »
Given the state of how bad A4000's are in the wild, it seems like some simple rommable diagnostic software would be a god-send.
 

Offline freqmax

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Re: Need help fixing A4000
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2013, 10:57:09 PM »
I think there are some factory "burn in" test software?