Amiga audio early lead lost..

[Plaz]

http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/ad516

This in a zorro Amiga outperformed most anything pc based at the time. I still own two of them. I also moved to pc when commodore closed. I had to go back to Amiga/AD516 after much lost time and work on inferior wintel based alternatives of the day. And that was after spending over $200 on a PC turtle beach card. (AD cards far more expensive, but quality ain't cheap) SB cards of the day were too noisy for serious recording. I had tape decks that were quieter.

It wasn't until winXP with improved SB cards many years later that wintel surpassed the Ami solution and the AD's still hold their own against the low-mid pc stuff.

Plaz

[psxphill]

It wasn't until winXP with improved SB cards many years later that wintel surpassed the Ami solution and the AD's still hold their own against the low-mid pc stuff.

It happened during the Windows 95 era. Cool edit was much better for audio editing than anything on the Amiga.

[Pentad]

Why is it that when the Amiga uses the CPU to mix sound channels you say it is "faking it" but when 500 million bill gates compatible PCs use the CPU to mix sound channels its "4 realz dewd"?

The vast majority of bill gates compatible pcs do not have a sound card and never will have a sound card.  I certainly never had one on any of mine.  I never met any laptop that had a sound card plugged in.  I only met a few desktops that had one.  Most computers use cheap onboard audio chip.

My 1500 Mhz Athlon Windoze XP box uses the CPU to mix the audio channels when I run audio software that has 4 channels of audio.  My audio drops out all the time when the computer is under high cpu load.

There is so much wrong with this post, I'm not even sure where to begin.. meh...

[AmigaClassicRule]

There is so much wrong with this post, I'm not even sure where to begin.. meh...

What do you have in mind?

[psxphill]

Most computers use cheap onboard audio chip.

That is because that is all they need, it's good enough for what most people need. Paula can't compete with a cheap onboard audio chip anyway.
 
For producing music then software mixing is fine, you only need to do it in real time for preview. You downmix at the end anyway.
 
Using the 14bit paula hack with multiple channels is much worse than using software mixing on your PC.

[Karlos]

4 tracks 8 bit.... Mod heaven for a time, but the world moved on...

Why no answer even to sb 8 bit, that did 32 tracks at 8 bit with noisetracker?

You clearly never used OctaMED sound studio. With a fast enough CPU It could play up to 64 tracks* through Paula at 14-bit (up to 56kHz on RTG or doublescan) or through a number of directly supported 16-bit soundcards. Even on slower machines, you could compose at lower fidelity and then render to disk at full quality.

*each track could play notes as either 8 or 16-bit mono or stereo samples, a synthsound or a MIDI device.

[asymetrix]

The vast majority of bill gates compatible pcs do not have a sound card and never will have a sound card.  I certainly never had one on any of mine.  I never met any laptop that had a sound card plugged in.  I only met a few desktops that had one.  Most computers use cheap onboard audio chip.

I dont need a soundcard - audio on chip is great.

My PC has a Realtek ALC892 audio chipset acording to the asus website :

http://uk.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8Z77V_PRO/#overview

would you say that is a cheap onboard audio chip ?

http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PFid=28&Level=5&Conn=4&ProdID=284

The ALC892-CG/ALC892-DTS-CG is a high-performance multi-channel High Definition Audio Codec with Realtek proprietary lossless content protection technology that protects pre-recorded content while still allowing full-rate audio enjoyment from DVD audio, Blu-ray DVD, or HD DVD discs.

The ALC892 provides ten DAC channels that simultaneously support 7.1 channel sound playback, plus 2 channels of independent stereo sound output (multiple streaming) through the front panel stereo outputs. Two stereo ADCs and one stereo digital microphone converter are integrated and can support a microphone array with Acoustic Echo Cancellation (AEC), Beam Forming (BF), and Noise Suppression (NS) technologies.

All analog I/O are input and output capable, and headphone amplifiers are also integrated at three analog output ports (port-D/port-E/port-F). All analog I/Os can be re-tasked according to user definitions.

Support for 16/20/24-bit SPDIF input and output with up to 192kHz sample rate offers easy connection of PCs to consumer electronic products such as digital decoders and speakers. The ALC892 also features secondary SPDIF-OUT output and converter to transport digital audio output to a High Definition Media Interface (HDMI) transmitter.

The ALC892 supports host audio from the Intel chipsets, and also from any other HDA compatible audio controller. With various software utilities like environment sound emulation, multiple-band and independent software equalizer, dynamic range compressor and expander, optional Dolby PCEE program, SRS TruSurround HD, SRS Premium Sound, Fortemedia SAM, Creative Host Audio, Synopsys Sonic Focus, DTS Surround Sensation | UltraPC, and DTS Connect licenses, the ALC892 offers the highest sound quality, providing an excellent entertainment package and game experience for PC users.


7.1+2 Channel HD Audio Codec with Content Protection
 
General Description
The ALC892-CG/ALC892-DTS-CG is a high-performance multi-channel High Definition Audio Codec with Realtek proprietary lossless content protection technology that protects pre-recorded content while still allowing full-rate audio enjoyment from DVD audio, Blu-ray DVD, or HD DVD discs.

The ALC892 provides ten DAC channels that simultaneously support 7.1 channel sound playback, plus 2 channels of independent stereo sound output (multiple streaming) through the front panel stereo outputs. Two stereo ADCs and one stereo digital microphone converter are integrated and can support a microphone array with Acoustic Echo Cancellation (AEC), Beam Forming (BF), and Noise Suppression (NS) technologies.

All analog I/O are input and output capable, and headphone amplifiers are also integrated at three analog output ports (port-D/port-E/port-F). All analog I/Os can be re-tasked according to user definitions.

Support for 16/20/24-bit SPDIF input and output with up to 192kHz sample rate offers easy connection of PCs to consumer electronic products such as digital decoders and speakers. The ALC892 also features secondary SPDIF-OUT output and converter to transport digital audio output to a High Definition Media Interface (HDMI) transmitter.

The ALC892 supports host audio from the Intel chipsets, and also from any other HDA compatible audio controller. With various software utilities like environment sound emulation, multiple-band and independent software equalizer, dynamic range compressor and expander, optional Dolby PCEE program, SRS TruSurround HD, SRS Premium Sound, Fortemedia SAM, Creative Host Audio, Synopsys Sonic Focus, DTS Surround Sensation | UltraPC, and DTS Connect licenses, the ALC892 offers the highest sound quality, providing an excellent entertainment package and game experience for PC users.

 

 
Features
Hardware Features
DACs with 95dB SNR (A-weighting), ADCs with 90dB SNR (A-weighting)
Ten DAC channels support 16/20/24-bit PCM format for 7.1 channel sound playback, plus 2 channels of concurrent independent stereo sound output (multiple streaming) through the front panel output
Two stereo ADCs support 16/20/24-bit PCM format, multiple stereo recording
All DACs supports 44.1k/48k/96k/192kHz sample rate
All ADCs supports 44.1k/48k/96k/192kHz sample rate
Primary 16/20/24-bit SPDIF-OUT supports 32k/44.1k/48k/88.2k/96k/192kHz sample rate
Secondary 16/20/24-bit SPDIF-OUT supports 32k/44.1k/48k/88.2k/96k/192kHz sample rate
16/20/24-bit SPDIF-IN supports 44.1k/48k/96k/192kHz sample rate
All analog jacks (port-A to port-G) are stereo input and output re-tasking
Port-D/E/F built-in headphone amplifiers
Port-B/C/E/F with software selectable boost gain (+10/+20/+30dB) for analog microphone input
High-quality analog differential CD input
Supports external PCBEEP input and built-in digital BEEP generator
Software selectable 2.5V/3.2V/4.0V VREFOUT
Up to four channels of microphone array input are supported for AEC/BF applications
Three jack detection pins; each designed to detect up to 4 jacks
Supports legacy analog mixer architecture
Up to two GPIOs (General Purpose Input and Output) for customized applications. GPIO0 and GPIO1 share pin with DMIC-CLK and DMIC-DATA
Supports mono and stereo digital microphone interface (pins shared with GPIO0 and GPIO1)
Supports anti-pop mode when analog power LDO-IN is on and digital power is off
Content Protection for Full Rate lossless DVD Audio, Blu-ray DVD, and HD-DVD audio content playback (with selected versions of WinDVD/PowerDVD/TMT)
1dB per step output volume and input volume control
Supports 3.3V digital core power, 1.5V or 3.3V digital I/O power for HD Audio link, and 5.0V analog power
Intel low power ECR compliant and power status control for each analog/digital converter and pin widget
48-pin LQFP ‘Green’ package

Software Features
Meets Microsoft WLP 3.x and future WLP audio requirements
WaveRT-based audio function driver for Windows Vista and Windows 7
Direct Sound 3D™ compatible
I3DL2 compatible
7.1+2 channel multi-streaming enables concurrent gaming/VoIP
Emulation of 26 sound environments to enhance gaming experience
Multiband software equalizer and tools provided
Voice Cancellation and Key Shifting effect
Dynamic range control (expander, compressor, and limiter) with adjustable parameters
Intuitive Configuration Panel (Realtek Audio Manager) to enhance user experience
Microphone Acoustic Echo Cancellation (AEC), Noise Suppression (NS), and Beam Forming (BF) technology for voice applications
Smart multiple streaming operation
HDMI audio driver for AMD platform
Optional Dolby PCEE program, SRS TruSurround HD, SRS Premium Sound, Fortemedia SAM, Creative Host Audio, Synopsys Sonic Focus, DTS Surround Sensation | UltraPC, and DTS Connect licenses

How does this chip compare ?

[Plaz]

It happened during the Windows 95 era. Cool edit was much better for audio editing than anything on the Amiga.

For editing yes. I used to record tracks on the Ami then edit them on the PC with Cool Edit.  Cool Edit is one of the best utils ever and I still use its modern descendant today... Audio Audition (Cool Edit bought out by Adobe) . However buggy crashy win95 was horrible for actual multi-track recording. I lost days of time and money because of lost and corrupted work on 95 no matter the service packs, driver updates memory managers... on and on I tired to make it better. This is why I had to go back to Amiga equipment. Because of the horrible window experience it took me along time to move to XP. Sonar (version 5 maybe) finally made me make the move back to a wintel box.

Plaz

[itix]

4ch 8-bit was good enough for gaming and productivity applications were marginal. Sarvet r&d resources were spent improving gfx where amiga was far behind PC-XT.

[Thorham]

Sarvet r&d resources were spent improving gfx where amiga was far behind PC-XT.

Amiga was far behind PC-XT? How?

[ChaosLord]

I dont need a soundcard - audio on chip is great.

My PC has a Realtek ALC892 audio chipset acording to the asus website :


How does this chip compare ?

Yes that is exactly what I meant by a cheap onboard sound chip.

When you play a mod on that sound chip, 4 channels or 64 channels, it doesn't matter:  The CPU has to do all the work of mixing the soundchannels together which is exactly what Amiga Oktalyzer and TFMX have been doing since the 1980s and Octamed Sound Studio and Digibooster and others have been doing since 1990s.

At least Paula can mix 4 channels together for free on its own.  Your cheap onboard sound chip can't even do that.

At least Paula accepts a wide variety of sample rates.  Your cheap onboard soundchip can't.  It just laughs at you and lazily refuses to play any sound that has not been laboriously resampled by the CPU to one of the few frequencies that it can handle.

[persia]

By putting graphics and sound on the motherboard instead of expansion like zorro they doomed the machine.  And PC's didn't do sound and graphics in-house, they outsourced it, this allowed the graphics and sound card manufacturers to have a much bigger sales volume.

[Karlos]

Yes that is exactly what I meant by a cheap onboard sound chip.

When you play a mod on that sound chip, 4 channels or 64 channels, it doesn't matter:  The CPU has to do all the work of mixing the soundchannels together which is exactly what Amiga Oktalyzer and TFMX have been doing since the 1980s and Octamed Sound Studio and Digibooster and others have been doing since 1990s.

At least Paula can mix 4 channels together for free on its own.  Your cheap onboard sound chip can't even do that.

It has 10 24-bit DACs capable of 192kHz playback that can be multiplexed down into a single stereo stream (for instance, when using headphones). In what sense is it not capable of mixing channels?

At least Paula accepts a wide variety of sample rates.  Your cheap onboard soundchip can't.  It just laughs at you and lazily refuses to play any sound that has not been laboriously resampled by the CPU to one of the few frequencies that it can handle.

Well, there you may have a point, but plenty of on sound chips support hardware mixing of sounds at different playback rates. It was very common for older DirectX drivers to support hardware sample replay/mixing on the soundcard before Windows Vista came along with it's entirely new floating-point based audio system (Universal Audio Architecture).

Mixing audio on the CPU, however, uses an absolutely pitiful amount of CPU time, even on any remotely accelerated Amiga (I've done 32-channel stuff in OctaMED SS on an 040), let alone a present day PC.

I can play back two dozen MP3 streams simultaneously on my current (linux) PC before I see pulseaudio lingering in the top 10 processes, and even then it's never more than a few percent of the available capacity of one core.

[Lurch]

It's a silly argument to be honest. Comparing Paula to a modern IBM compatible sound card (be it onboard or not).

Technology from 80's/90's looks prehistoric compared to a "cheap onboard chip" of today.

If you are comparing IBM compatibles of the same generation of the Amiga then that argument makes more sense.

My 486sx 25 with it's sound blaster 16 and later sound blaster AWE 64 with it's onboard RAM was amazing. It saddens me to say it but the AWE 64 card was a Paula killer.

I also refuse to refer to x86 boxes as PC's as to me the Amiga is a personal computer. Even my C64C had personal computer on the label ;-)

In it's day the Amiga was amazing, don't get me wrong I have a weird obsession with Amiga's and like to see what they can still do. Always amazed at the under 5 second boot time to get into Workbench.

But then it's not loading what a modern OS needs to load. Being something like windows is far more complicated. Having said that my Windows 8 laptop boots in around 5-7 seconds, or 2 to 3 from standby.

The one thing the IBM compatible can't do is get me excited like a kid on Christmas morning. I'll always have a soft spot for the Amiga. Hence why I've bought a few of Jen's cards as I would like to see more hardware produced.

Anyway enough from me. Back to reading stuff :-)

[Linde]

At least Paula can mix 4 channels together for free on its own.  Your cheap onboard sound chip can't even do that.

Did you miss the part about 10 DACs? Really, didn't the 7.1 part get through to you? Do you have an issue with reading comprehension? That's 7 individual channels. These chips are a lot more competent than you make them out to be. Even Soundblaster Live cards ($5 late 90s budget option) have DSPs capable of analog synthesizer modeling and wavetable synthesis that makes the Paula look ridiculously primitive. And yeah, >4 output channels. You are naive to think that the function of modern PC sound chips is limited to CPU based software mixing.

[Linde]

On another, somewhat related note I think the Amiga could seriously have used an additional sound chip. Four channels on an A500/A1200 setup was obviously seriously limiting when it comes to producing both music and sound effects. Something like the OPL2 or even something as simple as an YM2149 in addition to the Paula would have been very useful.