Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?  (Read 36653 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AJCopland

Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #164 from previous page: December 15, 2012, 11:53:56 AM »
@donpalmera
This is one reason I don't bother posting on these or other Amiga forums anymore, personally I'd think the only real future route for an Amiga accelerator board would be using an FPGA or large CPLD depending on cost. You asked about the FE133, I've seen the tests done and answered, as has ChaosLord and all we've got from you is attitude.

Neither is saying that they're genuine, neither of us is saying that we should all rush out and build a board with them. If you're so wound up about what they are or are not then buy one and test it because I don't think that either of us would advocate that as a future chip for us in an accelerator board.

Whatever you do, drop the attitude. You come across as rude bordering on outright insulting.
Be Positive towards the Amiga community!
 

Offline ChaosLord

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2003
  • Posts: 2608
    • Show only replies by ChaosLord
    • http://totalchaoseng.dbv.pl/news.php
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #165 on: December 15, 2012, 11:55:48 AM »
Quote from: AJCopland;719194
What's with the attitude?


He's a new account created for trolling.
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline Lord Aga

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 396
    • Show only replies by Lord Aga
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #166 on: December 15, 2012, 01:28:41 PM »
Quote from: donpalmera;719145
Great.. a view.. I'm looking for evidence here. If they do work where are all of the posts showing them off?

There are posts and pics and videos proving that they do work. NatAmi's softcore CPU was never completed so all tests were done with 060 (regular and FE) CPU daughterboards.

Quote from: donpalmera;719145
There is no evidence there either... more he said she said. No one has posted "They work, they clock up to xyz, the mask revision according the the register in the chip is...".

Yes there is. Team members posted about their test boards working at 100+ MHz. Not 133, but they believed it could be achieved with some tweaking and better cooling.

Quote from: donpalmera;719145
And we're back to "my mate Dave down the pub said they work, so they must work".

You are pretty harsh on people for allegedly talking about something they haven't tried, or have very little info about, but you seem to be doing exactly the same thing. Many of us followed the NatAmi forum daily, so I can pretty much say that we know more on this matter then you do. There is no need for such an offensive attitude here.

So... say hello to your mate Dave down the pub who told you that they didn't work, and inform him that they do work.

EDIT:
In the meantime AJC explained pretty much the same thing.
Glory to the loud-mouthed Scotsman !
 

Offline donpalmera

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 44
    • Show only replies by donpalmera
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #167 on: December 15, 2012, 04:23:12 PM »
Quote from: Lord Aga;719202
There are posts and pics and videos proving that they do work. NatAmi's softcore CPU was never completed so all tests were done with 060 (regular and FE) CPU daughterboards.


Please link them then..

Quote from: Lord Aga;719202
Many of us followed the NatAmi forum daily, so I can pretty much say that we know more on this matter then you do. There is no need for such an offensive attitude here.


Sigh, you followed some forums.. great. These chips very well may have "worked". But as I said.. I have 0.8mm pitch AE package 68SEC000s that don't exist that apparently work too.. would you ship a product based on these parts?

The fact that none of you even brought up the fact that Motorola mentions CQFP parts in their documentation when they apparently don't exist surprises me to be honest. I would have thought you would have mentioned it right away..
 

Offline donpalmera

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 44
    • Show only replies by donpalmera
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #168 on: December 15, 2012, 04:39:26 PM »
Quote from: AJCopland;719194
What's with the attitude? You asked, I answered as best I could, no-one on the Natami team has even though there's a few of them with boards out there including with these chips.


There's no attitude. Sorry for asking people to back up what they are saying.

Quote from: AJCopland;719194

I get the frustration about finding out more about these parts and where they come from but you have your answer, buy some, mount them on a board with a rom and start dumping output to get what you want.


Sigh.. this is exactly what I'm asking the people that are saying "hey, you hardware guys, you should make board with these super chips or else!?!!?".

Quote from: AJCopland;719194

I cannot access the section of the forum to get you that information anymore so I'm just repeating what info I remember. The output from the test programs, and the test programs themselves were available to us, the chips were tested and clocked upto 120MHz,


That information would have been interesting. I'm surprised no one can remember what mask these things are though.

Quote from: AJCopland;719194
They didn't have Motorola based numbering/revision and didn't appear to be repackaged 75Mhz QFP parts. Partly because they were a different physical size to the older QFP parts.


I'm very doubtful anyone would go the the effort to package bare dies or attempt to re-package already packaged dies. For Motorola QFP packages there is a stamp on the underside of the package that says where that die was packaged (For the 68000 series the dies have been fabbed in the US, Japan etc but it seems from the PCNs that most of the parts got packaged in Hong Kong or Mayalsia). You can use the information in the PCNs to verify the datecode on some parts (The PCNs say where parts should have been packaged on certain years).

Quote from: AJCopland;719194
I've never really cared where they came from


For your own use, yeah, whatever any old working chip will do. You can't ship that in a product as was being suggested..

Quote from: AJCopland;719194
but speculation has always been that Motorola produced some QFP 68060 chips in China


Motorola never had fabs in China.. and they don't seem to have every packaged chips in China either. Motorola's own documents mention QFP parts though. So it is possible they did produce some that didn't get to the point of general sale.. and some parts broker managed to get hold of them. Even if that is the case they are still a massive unknown and not something you would want to ship in a product.

Quote from: AJCopland;719194
and so the designs were just blatantly stolen. I doubt we'll ever get an official answer from anyone.


That's where it gets hairy.. no one in China is that crazy. Fab'ing bootleg chips from "motorola designs" would be beyond uneconomical.
 

Offline AJCopland

Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #169 on: December 15, 2012, 04:40:11 PM »
Quote from: donpalmera;719216
Please link them then..
Sigh, you followed some forums.. great. These chips very well may have "worked". But as I said.. I have 0.8mm pitch AE package 68SEC000s that don't exist that apparently work too.. would you ship a product based on these parts?

The fact that none of you even brought up the fact that Motorola mentions CQFP parts in their documentation when they apparently don't exist surprises me to be honest. I would have thought you would have mentioned it right away..


Why does it surprise you? We've discussed this rubbish on and off for years, even if we haven't mentioned the part numbers in posts to make it easy for you to find. What exactly should we be guessing you'll "expect" us to mention next? They made QFP parts? Yes. Some of these show up rebadged? Yes.

We know there are parts that exist which Moto' don't list anywhere official. Whoop-dee-doo. So far people have "asked" if it's worth finding out about the FE133 parts, the answer has been "no".
Be Positive towards the Amiga community!
 

Offline donpalmera

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 44
    • Show only replies by donpalmera
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #170 on: December 15, 2012, 04:56:28 PM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;719195

So now you are admitting that Freescale LIED when they marked their chips as LC or EC ?  When in fact they were full 060s?


It's very common for multiple products to be produced from the same mask...
EC parts having working FPUs and MMUs is something you can go and verify yourself fairly easily. Whether those FPUs and MMUs actually work to spec is another matter but they weren't sold as such..

Quote from: ChaosLord;719195

So now you are admitting that Digikey sells fake untested cpus for high prices?


Digikey is a distributor. They distribute stuff. They are a trusted distributor and they get their parts from the vendors. Vendors like Xilinx etc will only deal with trusted partners like Digikey. Digikey shouldn't need to test parts coming from vendors as the vendor has their own testing and you can get mask qualification data etc from Freescale. Fake/Non-working parts shouldn't get into Digikey etcs stock but if they do you have a chain all the way back to the original vendor. Compare that to Chinese parts brokers; 1: you buy some parts, 2: they come in the post 3 weeks later (Digikey ship parts from the US to here in Japan in about 3 days), 3: You unwrap the food wrapping film that has been used to pack the parts, 3.5: You wash your hands as for some strange reason parts from China/HK usually come stinking and covered in some sort of thin oil, 4: you notice the parts are fake, 5: you contact the broker .... you get no response.

P.S. Trolling does not mean asking people to backup what they are saying.
 

Offline Blinx123

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2006
  • Posts: 383
    • Show only replies by Blinx123
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #171 on: December 15, 2012, 05:04:05 PM »
The first five revisions are far from rare, are they?

Talked to a distributor today and they still had eighty 50MHz CPUs with MMU and FPU in stock.

Guy warned me not to use these without dedicated cooling though. At least not when I'm overclocking them to 66MHz.

I was also looking around for inexpensive 128MB sticks, but couldn't get a definite answer on whether 60ns RAM (of which I should still have a few sticks) is good enough for serious OC (as in an 80MHz 060).

As nice as 50ns sticks would be, they're kind of out of my budget.
Sam: \\"You crack me up little buddy\\"
Max: \\"I love you Sam\\"
 

Offline donpalmera

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 44
    • Show only replies by donpalmera
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #172 on: December 15, 2012, 05:08:03 PM »
Quote from: AJCopland;719221
Why does it surprise you? We've discussed this rubbish on and off for years, even if we haven't mentioned the part numbers in posts to make it easy for you to find.


It surprises me because you would have thought instead making up some colourful story about Chinese guys reverse engineering the Motorola designs someone would have looked that the information Motorola put into the public.
I know what the part numbers are.. and they only ever appear on broker sites. You can give parts brokers any old part number you like and get something in the post.

Quote from: AJCopland;719221
So far people have "asked" if it's worth finding out about the FE133 parts, the answer has been "no".


Ok, so we can agree that people shouldn't be harping on that people should make turbo cards with these things then because no one has any idea what they are. Case closed. :banana:
 

Offline donpalmera

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 44
    • Show only replies by donpalmera
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #173 on: December 15, 2012, 05:12:50 PM »
Quote from: Blinx123;719227
The first five revisions are far from rare, are they?

Talked to a distributor today and they still had eighty 50MHz CPUs with MMU and FPU in stock.



First five revisions of what? the 68060? There are only 4 masks of the 060 from what I can tell.
I'm not sure if having the latest greatest revision is all that big of a deal either. From all of the 68060 turbo cards I have seen and all of the photos I can find online there seem to be a fair amount of them with the "buggy" revisions.

Here is the errata sheet if you actually want to check for yourself:
http://cache.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/errata/MC68060DE.pdf?fpsp=1&WT_TYPE=Errata&WT_VENDOR=FREESCALE&WT_FILE_FORMAT=pdf&WT_ASSET=Documentation
 

Offline ChaosLord

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2003
  • Posts: 2608
    • Show only replies by ChaosLord
    • http://totalchaoseng.dbv.pl/news.php
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #174 on: December 15, 2012, 05:16:46 PM »
Quote from: donpalmera;719225
It's very common for multiple products to be produced from the same mask...
EC parts having working FPUs and MMUs is something you can go and verify yourself fairly easily. Whether those FPUs and MMUs actually work to spec is another matter but they weren't sold as such..

Motorola frequently produced full 060s and just marked them as LC or EC when they weren't LC or EC.

I have one.  Its not supposed to have FPU/MMU and yet there it is, working perfectly, all these years.


You would rather trust a few characters of writing to tell you if something works rather than to test the product itself to see if it works or fails.
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline AmigaClassicRuleTopic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2011
  • Posts: 956
    • Show only replies by AmigaClassicRule
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #175 on: December 15, 2012, 05:19:56 PM »
I am curious, is it the limitation of the actual 68k that it cannot continue to 68070, 68080 and so on and that it cannot go beyond 50 Mhz like 230 Mhz or 1 Ghz or is it the limitation of the Amiga classic itself that forces the maximum limit of 50 Mhz for all 68K except with forced over clocking?
 

Offline Blinx123

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2006
  • Posts: 383
    • Show only replies by Blinx123
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #176 on: December 15, 2012, 05:20:31 PM »
Quote from: donpalmera;719232
First five revisions of what? the 68060? There are only 4 masks of the 060 from what I can tell.
I'm not sure if having the latest greatest revision is all that big of a deal either. From all of the 68060 turbo cards I have seen and all of the photos I can find online there seem to be a fair amount of them with the "buggy" revisions.

Here is the errata sheet if you actually want to check for yourself:
http://cache.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/errata/MC68060DE.pdf?fpsp=1&WT_TYPE=Errata&WT_VENDOR=FREESCALE&WT_FILE_FORMAT=pdf&WT_ASSET=Documentation


Ok.

Thanks.

I assumed there were six revisions since the last one commonly goes by "68060 Rev6"
Sam: \\"You crack me up little buddy\\"
Max: \\"I love you Sam\\"
 

Offline donpalmera

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 44
    • Show only replies by donpalmera
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #177 on: December 15, 2012, 05:31:53 PM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;719233
Motorola frequently produced full 060s and just marked them as LC or EC when they weren't LC or EC.
I have one.  Its not supposed to have FPU/MMU and yet there it is, working perfectly, all these years.


This is exactly what I said. It could be the case that your EC parts failed some test and you just haven't noticed. If it works fair enough. If you were selling EC units as full parts and Motorola* suddenly started actually fabbing EC parts without the FPU and MMU you would be up **** creek without a paddle.
For another example of the same sort of thing some of the FPGA vendors will sell chips that are only verified to run a single bitstream as some of the part failed but not one of the bits you are using.. Those parts turn up as fully working parts sometimes. This is why semiconductor vendors now burn identifying information into chips.

If you buy these "no one knows what the hell they are" parts you might find you get some that work, some that don't, some that have visible signs that they have been recycled (I have had *new* chips with traces attached). If you want to hack up a board with one of those knock yourself out... producing a product for sale with such parts probably isn't legal.

*This is a fantasy situation. Motorola doesn't exist and Freescale aren't making any 68060 parts.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 05:53:15 PM by donpalmera »
 

Offline ChaosLord

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2003
  • Posts: 2608
    • Show only replies by ChaosLord
    • http://totalchaoseng.dbv.pl/news.php
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #178 on: December 15, 2012, 05:35:00 PM »
Quote from: AmigaClassicRule;719235
I am curious, is it the limitation of the actual 68k that it cannot continue to 68070, 68080 and so on and that it cannot go beyond 50 Mhz like 230 Mhz or 1 Ghz or is it the limitation of the Amiga classic itself that forces the maximum limit of 50 Mhz for all 68K except with forced over clocking?


The limitations are purely political and religous.

Motorola intentionally stopped improving the 680x0 line in order to try to force everyone over to PPC.  Motorola managers did a lot of stupid things.
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline donpalmera

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 44
    • Show only replies by donpalmera
Re: Will there be an ACA1240 or ACA1260?
« Reply #179 on: December 15, 2012, 05:46:59 PM »
Quote from: AmigaClassicRule;719235
I am curious, is it the limitation of the actual 68k that it cannot continue to 68070


The 68k series continued in the Coldfire which isn't compatible enough. The Coldfire is another one of those things that people often bring up in "someone must make xzy" threads.

Quote from: AmigaClassicRule;719235
cannot go beyond 50 Mhz like 230 Mhz or 1 Ghz"


There is technically possible and economically possible. I don't see why you couldn't make a stinking fast 68k but there is no market for a desktop 68k processor in this day and age so there aren't any.

Quote from: AmigaClassicRule;719235
Amiga classic itself that forces the maximum limit of 50 Mhz for all 68K except with forced over clocking?


Or just dump the hardware and do it all in software instead. If back when I bought a BlizzardPPC new there were X86 systems that could run WinUAE as fast as they do now I would have never bought the BPPC.