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Author Topic: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?  (Read 20470 times)

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Offline NovaCoder

Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #74 from previous page: February 03, 2013, 11:14:18 PM »
Just got myself a Blizzard 1260 and wanted to do a speed comparison with an Apollo 1260 as there is so much conflicting bullsh*t written about this subject.


Ok, I spent the day yesterday setting up my new Blizzard and can now do some speed comparisons between the two.

My Blizz is currently running at 75 MHz vs my Apollo that runs at 80 Mhz so keep that in mind.

I'll be uploading both SysSpeed modules to AmiNet soon for people to compare (I might whack the Blizzard up to 80 Mhz first though if my other 128Mb SIM fits in it ok).

With a standard BB2 3.9 system the fast-ram access speed it is roughly 30% quicker than the Apollo, it surprising matches the chip-ram speed of the Apollo in most cases but for a couple of the test the Apollo beats the Blizz by about 20% (you'll need to download the modules to get the exact ratings).

The HD transfer rate was terrible with just BB2 (about 1 MB/s) but the excellent BlizKick got that up to a more respectable 3 MB/s (this is with an IdeFixExpress). My Apollo managed about 3.5 MB/s with the same setup so that's where it's faster chip-ram access is helping. I've got a brand-new FAST-ATA sitting in a box next to my 1200 which should help boost that speed a little

The MIPS are also interesting, the Blizz is running at 99.5 MIPS vs the 104.5 of the Apollo (remember that the Apollo is running 5 MHz faster).

As for real world game testing:

BOOM 060 runs 'Return to Saturn' much better than on the Apollo, it's now as smooth as butter and can even run full-screen without any slow-down. AmiQuake AGA is a bit strange, the FPS in the time-demo has gone up from 12.9 to 13.4 but it doesn't actually feel quite as fast to play (maybe this is just in my head).

I'm not sure if it's the hardware that is really making the difference, I think a large part of it may be down to the superior 060 library and the excellent BlizKick utility.

New Blizzard 1260 in action

I'll try and remember to update this thread with the names of the SysSpeed modules.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 11:59:17 PM by NovaCoder »
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Offline ChaosLord

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #75 on: February 04, 2013, 12:00:29 AM »
Quote from: NovaCoder;725244

With a standard BB2 3.9 system the fast-ram speed it is roughly 30% quicker than the Apollo, it surprising matches the chip-ram speed of the Apollo in most cases but for a couple of the test the Apollo beats the Blizz by about 20% (you need to download the modules to get the exact ratings).


Maybe by boosting the Mhz you have altered things such that Blizzard partly catches up to Apollo Chipram speeds?

In fact, by boosting the Apollo from 50Mhz to 80Mhz it might have even slowed down its chipram access times.  One can never know unless one tests.  The way accelerator cards access memory is a field of darque blaque majix.

Or maybe you are averaging out all the chipram timing tests which is not something I care about.

The speed of reading from chipram using bytes, words or longwords is interesting from a scientific perspective but not really useful to the consumer in determing which card is best.

The speed of writing to chipram using 8-bit writes or 16-bit writes is interesting from a scientific perspective but not really useful to the consumer in determing which card is best.

The only chipram test that matters is how fast chipram can be written to 32-bits at a time.  If a game is writing 16-bits at a time then it is unoptimized slow as molasses anyway and doesn't bear consideration.

When an Apollo has "20% faster chipram access" this says to me, as a game coder, that Apollo cards have a 20% faster framerate, which is fantastically important to gamers and animators.  Anyone who uses the Amiga for video purposes, such as SCALA or CLARISSA or Total Chaos AGA or etc. etc.

As a gamecoder, all my games are bottlenecked by the speed at which my code can write to chipram 32-bits at a time. (because chipram is 32-bit memory).  All I care about is the speed of move.l Rn,ChipRam

Having faster fastmem is kewl and I love it, but that is not where my bottlenecks are at.

So when I did my timing tests on Apollo vs. Blizzards over the years I was mostly testing stock 50Mhz models (because that is what most ppl have).  And I was only paying attention to 32-bit chipram writes and all my tests were performed in 640x512x256 colors mode because that is what my games use.

Would you be willing to post your Busspeed test results from both cards in 640x512x256 colors mode?  (fastram and chipram, the whole thing)

Thanx!

Now if you want a surprise, get yourself an Apollo 1240 40Mhz and check out the amazing chipram access speeds!  I never had such a card but various playtesters sent in timing test results many years ago and it was really amazing how the 1240 could magically always access chipram at the maximum theoretical value.  Even faster than theoretically possible sometimes :)
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Offline delshay

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #76 on: February 04, 2013, 04:19:53 AM »
There is a video of a 366Mhz Blizzard card with benchmarks on youtube,but is it the fastest? No

Speed of PCI slot plays a important role on how Bvision performs on Blizzard card,expect benchmarks figure(s) you never seen before.

Min: 37.5Mhz
Max: 41.5Mhz*

*can operate higher,but is limited by main memory/PPC processor bus speed.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 04:44:13 AM by delshay »
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Offline Bamiga2002

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #77 on: February 04, 2013, 06:26:53 AM »
@delshay
Please, post a video of your setup running a timedemo or actual gameplay of Quake or Quake 2 etc. for us to see. I'm interested to see how much you have been able to squeeze out of the BPPC. I'm currently testing a 366Mhz PPC setup (5.5*66) how it performs and is it stable. Currently things are looking good :)
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Offline adonay

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #78 on: February 04, 2013, 12:08:39 PM »
I have owned them all. Apollo 060 at 80mhz a blizzard 1260 @ 50mhz . BPPC 240+060@50.

To be honest i liked the blizzard 1260 and the BPPC the best.
The apollo would crash every once in a while when the Phase 5 cards would be rock solid always without any weird sudden freezy that happend every 2-3 days with the apollo.
The apollo was upgraded by PG and had the latest mac chips and cpu revision.

My apollo only fitted in a tower due to a angeled sim slot that would interfere with the keyboard in the wedge case. The 1260 was the best card due to the scsi controller. However the bppc is the only card that allow you to use a gfx card in the wedge amiga.
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Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #79 on: February 04, 2013, 12:17:38 PM »
Quote

By any chance in the future are you considering C64AGA?



Firstly, you do realise Novacoder has ported software, not written it from scratch dont you? This isnt to discredit him, I also appreciate and enjoy his work, but do you have any idea how complex a machine the c64 is to emulate? Which emulator would you propose he ports? The only way to get good performance in a c64 emulator on a 680x0 cpu is to code completely in asm. There's no 680x0 asm open source emulators out there.

Secondly, there's no real advantage in using AGA vs even ocs for c64 emuation. CPU speed is the important thing here.

If you want a good c64 emulator for your classic, use MagiC64. Its easily the fastest c64 emu around for "classic" 68k amigas and even runs full speed for some games on my 40mhz '040 when using sound. Worst case scenario and I have to skip a few frames. Even on my 50mhz blizzmk4 '030 I had some years (decades) ago I could play quite a few games at close to full speed when using 1 frame in 3.
Anyone who knows much about how hard the c64 is to emulate will understand just how impressive that is for such low spec hardware.

You seem to be a bit misguided as to what RTG is and how it works too. Basically if software is system friendly it works under RTG. No special effort is required to use RTG, and most software that doesnt hit hardware directly will work on RTG.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 12:20:38 PM by fishy_fiz »
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline delshay

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2013, 01:37:48 PM »
Overclocking your Blizzard card to 366Mhz is a high risks if something goes wrong can it be repaired.

603e processor has a top end overclock of 380Mhz as far as i am aware,at this speed applications loading is insane for a classic amiga OS4.1.

NOTE: very high speed memory access is needed to get the best out of the processor at the above speed,but is not available to users of classic amiga.

WARNING! do not try the above speed on your hardware my card is modified for this.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 02:09:37 PM by delshay »
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Offline delshay

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #81 on: February 10, 2013, 02:01:54 PM »
Memory Bus Speed

High = 70Mhz+
Very High = 75Mhz+  ( awaiting standard for 300Mhz processor users ) no overclocking.
Master = 80Mhz+
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 02:16:31 PM by delshay »
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Offline delshay

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #82 on: February 10, 2013, 04:30:10 PM »
UPDATE CORRECTION:

603e Processor has a top end speed of 385Mhz overclocked


WARNING! do not overclock your card to such high speed possible permanent damage beyond repair.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 05:22:31 PM by delshay »
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Offline delshay

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #83 on: February 27, 2013, 12:59:52 AM »
Fastest is 380Mhz with very high speed memory access,but I have a strange feeling 400Mhz+ will soon be reached.
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #84 on: February 27, 2013, 03:11:12 AM »
Quote from: delshay;727635
Fastest is 380Mhz with very high speed memory access,but I have a strange feeling 400Mhz+ will soon be reached.

That is a 603e, isn't it?
Didn't know you could push one that fast.
The fastest I remember Freescale making was a 300 MHz unit.

Not exactly a power house regardless of speed.

Might make OS4 more tolerable on legacy machines.
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Offline delshay

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #85 on: February 27, 2013, 05:50:18 AM »
If it is a 603e processor at that speed I can assure you it can go faster. Its not about the CPU,its about memory access speed.  

The Blizzard mini PCI slot is also dragged into this.

The next jump if any will take the Blizzard pass 400Mhz and beyond,but im almost certain 400Mhz+ is not far away.

If the Blizzard card hits 500Mhz+ it will certainly raise eyebrows for a classic computer.
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #86 on: February 27, 2013, 05:07:55 PM »
Quote from: delshay;727657
If it is a 603e processor at that speed I can assure you it can go faster. Its not about the CPU,its about memory access speed.  

The Blizzard mini PCI slot is also dragged into this.

The next jump if any will take the Blizzard pass 400Mhz and beyond,but im almost certain 400Mhz+ is not far away.

If the Blizzard card hits 500Mhz+ it will certainly raise eyebrows for a classic computer.

I'm not 100% sure about the CPU (that was just from memory - and I've never owned one).
Yes, getting a computer that old up to 500MHz would be an accomplishment.
Pity no more of these cards are likely to be made. Freescale list the entire family as EOL with no replacement.
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Offline Crumb

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #87 on: February 27, 2013, 05:23:29 PM »
Quote from: fishy_fiz;725293
Secondly, there's no real advantage in using AGA vs even ocs for c64 emuation. CPU speed is the important thing here.


Although I mostly agree with you I guess Amiga Frodo could be updated to add support for c64 128 colour screenmodes and that's where AGA could come handy but even 060 is too slow to emulate c64 accurately. And on top of that I guess NovaCoder has better things to do :-)
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Offline Jose

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #88 on: February 27, 2013, 11:16:47 PM »
I remember many years ago some mentions that some version of the G3 would be feasible as a replacement in Blizzard cards, but given the value of the Blizzards I guess it's not worth the risk and apparently noone has seriously tried.
I've lost interest in the Classic PPC stuff after getting a Pegasos G3, an A1200 for old games and programs is great but for more recent apps / productivity it's a waste.
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Offline Jose

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Re: Most powerful PPC that can be put in an A1200?
« Reply #89 on: February 27, 2013, 11:18:32 PM »
Actually it's kinda weird we're still talking about this after all these years isn't it ? :) Cool though...
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