Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!  (Read 47551 times)

Description:

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline wawrzon

Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2012, 10:11:04 PM »
this thread is too promissing to be true. allow me to stand back till anything, just anything, is confirmed and released, then i ll applaud..

in the meantime if you are serious - the homepage of georg braun who created gba1k and consorts is here:
http://www.gb97816.homepage.t-online.de/

he has released documentation what concerns at least part of his projects, i dont know how much exactly. but you can contact him.
 

Offline TheRogueTopic starter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 40
    • Show only replies by TheRogue
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #90 on: November 13, 2012, 11:11:42 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;714871
this thread is too promissing to be true. allow me to stand back till anything, just anything, is confirmed and released, then i ll applaud..

in the meantime if you are serious - the homepage of georg braun who created gba1k and consorts is here:
http://www.gb97816.homepage.t-online.de/

he has released documentation what concerns at least part of his projects, i dont know how much exactly. but you can contact him.


I absolutely, COMPLETELY understand that. Lots of people love to talk out of their hat and discuss things they have no chance of accomplishing, especially it seems in the classic computing world, and ESPECIALLY in the Amiga world. Your reaction is totally natural and completely understandable. I have been sidetracked a bit, but I'll finish the redesign of the Thylacine today most likely today. I will post the layout as soon as it is finished. Maybe something more tangible then a block diagram will allow you to have hope in this project.
Go up to your brother, kill him with your gun. Leave him lying in his  uniform dying in the sun. War, it\'s never been so much fun!:destroy:
 

Offline Thorham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Posts: 1150
    • Show only replies by Thorham
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #91 on: November 13, 2012, 11:50:49 PM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;714854
Holy Crap!(tm)  If you can make something like your block diagram that is just
Freaking Awesome!
That block diagram seems to almost describe a complete computer. Why even bother with the Amiga part?

I've always asked myself the question: Why? Add a graphics card and a sound card, and you've got a PC with a 680x0 CPU. Not cool :(

Keep it Amiga, guys :)
 

Offline kickstart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2006
  • Posts: 1057
    • Show only replies by kickstart
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #92 on: November 14, 2012, 12:17:50 AM »
Quote from: Thorham;714878
That block diagram seems to almost describe a complete computer. Why even bother with the Amiga part?

I've always asked myself the question: Why? Add a graphics card and a sound card, and you've got a PC with a 680x0 CPU. Not cool :(

Keep it Amiga, guys :)


Dont worry are just fantasies, people starts with accelerator cards and ends with another more "amiga friendly" system.
a1200 060
 

Offline anglosaxonusa

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2010
  • Posts: 33
    • Show only replies by anglosaxonusa
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #93 on: November 14, 2012, 12:47:49 AM »
Quote from: Thorham;714878
That block diagram seems to almost describe a complete computer. Why even bother with the Amiga part?

I've always asked myself the question: Why? Add a graphics card and a sound card, and you've got a PC with a 680x0 CPU. Not cool :(

Keep it Amiga, guys :)

That does bring up a good point.  It would be nice if the original system could be productively used as much as possible.

@TheRouge:

Given that the Zorro buses on the old machines are locked at a certain Mhz, is there any way around the bandwidth limitation by on-the-fly compression and decompression of the bits sent over the bus?

Say a new accelerator is introduced and it want's to communicate with a new RTG card on the old Zorro III bus.  Would it be possible for both the new accelerator and the new RTG card to have a chip which very quickly encodes and decodes data, in effect increasing the amount of information carried over the bus per-bit?  Perhaps something like this would allow the bus to handle more traffic?

Sorry if this is elementary or the way things already work.  I'm sure someone else has already done something like this, but I'm not sure if its been applied to the older Amigas...
 

Offline NovaCoder

Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #94 on: November 14, 2012, 01:08:33 AM »
Quote from: Thorham;714878
I've always asked myself the question: Why? Add a graphics card and a sound card, and you've got a PC with a 680x0 CPU. Not cool :(

Keep it Amiga, guys :)


That is an interesting subject.

Take a 'virgin' A1200, ok it's a nice retro computer but you can't really do much with it so you and some FASTRAM then a faster CPU, CF hard drive and an Indivision AGA with a chunky graphcis mode etc etc.

How far do you take it before it's no longer a retro classic Amiga?

Mediators fall in this category for me, stick a 1200 into a tower and add PCI video/sound cards and it becomes a slow PC that can't run PC software.

Personally, I'm happy that my 1200 is a classic as long as it is still in the original case, uses a 68k CPU (even if it's FPGA based) and can natively run classic software.

PPC cards for classics are also a waste of time because (apart from the lack of software) that much power is pointless when tied to the original chipset.
Life begins at 100 MIPS!


Nice Ports on AmiNet!
 

Offline Iggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2009
  • Posts: 5348
    • Show only replies by Iggy
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #95 on: November 14, 2012, 01:11:02 AM »
Quote from: Thorham;714878
That block diagram seems to almost describe a complete computer. Why even bother with the Amiga part?

I've always asked myself the question: Why? Add a graphics card and a sound card, and you've got a PC with a 680x0 CPU. Not cool :(

Keep it Amiga, guys :)


As the former manager of Delmar Company (which sold computers that WERE pretty much just that) I'm vaguely insulted.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2009
  • Posts: 5348
    • Show only replies by Iggy
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #96 on: November 14, 2012, 01:18:51 AM »
One thing that Thomas and the Natami team did uncover while they were still working together, the later '060s without a built in math co-processor were very overclockable.
100MHz easy with some able to pull 120.
Why not develop a software math library and try to use these (they're cheap btw)?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline TheRogueTopic starter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 40
    • Show only replies by TheRogue
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #97 on: November 14, 2012, 01:57:36 AM »
Quote from: anglosaxonusa;714884
That does bring up a good point.  It would be nice if the original system could be productively used as much as possible.

@TheRouge:

Given that the Zorro buses on the old machines are locked at a certain Mhz, is there any way around the bandwidth limitation by on-the-fly compression and decompression of the bits sent over the bus?

Say a new accelerator is introduced and it want's to communicate with a new RTG card on the old Zorro III bus.  Would it be possible for both the new accelerator and the new RTG card to have a chip which very quickly encodes and decodes data, in effect increasing the amount of information carried over the bus per-bit?  Perhaps something like this would allow the bus to handle more traffic?

Sorry if this is elementary or the way things already work.  I'm sure someone else has already done something like this, but I'm not sure if its been applied to the older Amigas...


From my understanding of Zorro III, this would not be possible. Communication between the CPU card and something on the Zorro bus would have to be relayed through the Buster, which has a practical limitation of ~20MBps. From my understanding of things (While I do have experience with hardware development, I have never attempted an Amiga accelerator before) the only way you could boost the speed of Zorro communication would be to design a replacement for the Buster chip. While this is theoretically possible to do using an FPGA and a plug-in adapter, I'm not going to commit to something like that without a real good reason.

Quote from: Thorham;714878
That block diagram seems to almost describe a complete computer. Why even bother with the Amiga part?

I've always asked myself the question: Why? Add a graphics card and a sound card, and you've got a PC with a 680x0 CPU. Not cool

Keep it Amiga, guys :)


The point would be to allow more demanding software to run on the Amiga platform while keeping close to full backwards compatibility with older software and hardware. I would not consider high-end graphics, large amounts of memory, some PCI-e lanes, and a fast processor attached to an OCS/ECS/AGA chipset to be a PC or close to it. I consider it to be an Amiga with high-end graphics and sound capabilities and an upgrade path (4 PCI-e 1x lanes) that is more future-proof then what is currently available. By your definition a CSPPC+CVPPC+128MB is a complete computer as well and therefor pointless. I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything, you are totally entitled to your opinion and I can absolutely see your point of view, I just think that as long as you are running a real 680X0 on a machine with a real Amiga custom chipset, it's still an Amiga, the rest is just gravy. You can still put an Amiga floppy disk into the drive and boot an Amiga game without any sort of emulation taking place. I actually find the idea that OS4 Classic uses JIT instead of the real 060 makes me unhappy. I fully understand that it was done for a good reason and I am by no means criticizing the developers, I'm just making a point. I know some purists would say a design like what has been proposed in this thread is absolute heresy, but I also think a lot of people will be very happy to have it.

Quote from: kickstart;714880
Dont worry are just fantasies, people starts with accelerator cards and ends with another more "amiga friendly" system.


I absolutely understand your skepticism and I take no offence from it. I hope you will not take offence when I say that I look forward to proving you wrong.

Quote from: ChaosLord;714854
@TheRogue

Holy Crap!(tm) If you can make something like your block diagram that is just
Freaking Awesome!

About your "expansion area". What is easier for you hardware guys to add these days? An oldsk00l PCI slot or a newfangled PCI Express x1 slot?

I bought a Gb Ethernet card 1000/100/10 for a PCI Express x1 slot the other day for like $40.00. I did not check if they make combo cards with Gb Ethernet and USB all in 1 card.

In any case if the card had some sort of way to plug in an off the shelf Gb Ethernet and off the shelf USB solution then that would be really really great and would solve a whole lot of problems all in 1 go.

I am not personally a fan of USB 1.1 to 2.0. I can't stand it really  But I respect that other people need it for stuff. But I do love USB 3.0


Thank you for your enthusiasm! To answer your question, as long as your hardware can support the speed PCI-e is easier due to it's serial nature. PCI is a parallel bus which means more traces, more I/O pins tied up, etc. I think it would be best to implement a header with 4 1x PCI-e signalling lines that could either be connected to a bus-board for connecting full size PCI-e cards for a tower configuration, or small board that plugs directly to the header and passes through the remaining PCI-e lanes to another header for use in tighter cases. It would obviously be smart to implement the newest version of the USB standard instead of the older versions at least in my opinion.
Go up to your brother, kill him with your gun. Leave him lying in his  uniform dying in the sun. War, it\'s never been so much fun!:destroy:
 

Offline kickstart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2006
  • Posts: 1057
    • Show only replies by kickstart
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2012, 02:00:58 AM »
Quote from: TheRogue;714894
I absolutely understand your skepticism and I take no offence from it. I hope you will not take offence when I say that I look forward to proving you wrong.


My words are without offence, same as yours... will be a pleasure to be wrong.
a1200 060
 

Offline TheRogueTopic starter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 40
    • Show only replies by TheRogue
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2012, 06:02:44 AM »
Just wanted to let everyone know the 1st version of the Thylacine redesign is almost done. I'm just putting the finishing touches on it now. This version has not moved much around, just removed the huge excess of wasted space at the end and moved a couple of caps just to save a few centimeters but it has already almost halved the length of the card. Right now its about the size of a Catweasel ZII, but I think I can get it down to the size of a Deneb (roughly) with a more thorough redesign. Don't forget, the smaller it is, the cheaper it is, so wish me luck!
Go up to your brother, kill him with your gun. Leave him lying in his  uniform dying in the sun. War, it\'s never been so much fun!:destroy:
 

Offline Cosmos Amiga

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2007
  • Posts: 954
    • Show only replies by Cosmos Amiga
    • http://leblogdecosmos.blogspot.com
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #100 on: November 14, 2012, 06:07:28 AM »
Quote from: TheRogue;714901
Just wanted to let everyone know the 1st version of the Thylacine redesign is almost done. I'm just putting the finishing touches on it now. This version has not moved much around, just removed the huge excess of wasted space at the end and moved a couple of caps just to save a few centimeters but it has already almost halved the length of the card. Right now its about the size of a Catweasel ZII, but I think I can get it down to the size of a Deneb (roughly) with a more thorough redesign. Don't forget, the smaller it is, the cheaper it is, so wish me luck!


Have you think about a triangle form factor, like the Delfina Zorro 2 ?

Offline TheRogueTopic starter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 40
    • Show only replies by TheRogue
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #101 on: November 14, 2012, 07:28:55 AM »
I hadn't thought of doing that way, but I don't think it will be necessary. I can easily supply a backplate with a ribbon cable connecting it to the card, so half length doesn't really matter much. The Thylacine is a super simple design with a very low component count, condensing it is easy. There is a lot of space used very inefficiently on it, but I have a feeling it was done that way specifically to pad it out to full length. Anyway, I'm just away from my computer now but I will post the first revision as soon as I get back to it.
Go up to your brother, kill him with your gun. Leave him lying in his  uniform dying in the sun. War, it\'s never been so much fun!:destroy:
 

Offline TheRogueTopic starter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 40
    • Show only replies by TheRogue
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #102 on: November 14, 2012, 08:29:33 AM »
Ok everyone, here as promised is the first redux of the Thylacine. Only two caps moved, but almost half the card cut away as wasted space. First off, here is the layout of the Thylacine as it was released:



Now, here is my first redraft:



I plan on doing more to it, I just wanted to show you guys that I'm not just sitting here with my thumb in. :)
Go up to your brother, kill him with your gun. Leave him lying in his  uniform dying in the sun. War, it\'s never been so much fun!:destroy:
 

Offline noXLar

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 14
    • Show only replies by noXLar
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #103 on: November 14, 2012, 08:36:49 AM »
Nice work.. is this a zorro card?
noXLar - Sam460ex 2GB 60Gb SSD +
1Tb X1950 Envy24HT sound card  A-Eon Drv
Amiga 1230 33mhz 128MB Indivision ACA 1200 MK2 USB PCMCIA WIFI 60GB&DVD-ROM OS 3.9
 

Offline TheRogueTopic starter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 40
    • Show only replies by TheRogue
Re: New project for the benefit of all classic computing!
« Reply #104 from previous page: November 14, 2012, 08:51:43 AM »
Quote from: noXLar;714912
Nice work.. is this a zorro card?


Yes sir it is, a Zorro II USB controller. I will be doing up an A500 version shortly, just so the A500 can have a USB solution that doesn't require a clockport or adapter. Thanks for the kind words!
Go up to your brother, kill him with your gun. Leave him lying in his  uniform dying in the sun. War, it\'s never been so much fun!:destroy: