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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #44 from previous page: November 08, 2012, 12:32:51 AM »
Once again there are rumors of a potential, upcoming architectural switch for Apple Mac's:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-05/apple-said-to-be-exploring-switch-from-intel-chips-for-the-mac.html

This is far from being the first rumor of this kind, many similar has circulated over the net during the last few years. One almost begin to wonder if there is a certain threshold when one can actually start using the old "where there is smoke, there is fire" saying. ;)

The usual responses to these rumors are: "Bullsh!t, ARM doesn't have enough performance", and the people saying so are usually sitting in the car of present, driving down the road of time, and looking at the various ARM CPU's in their rear mirror. A natural thing to do (looking in the rear mirror that is), since the road goes over a hill a bit further down the road, a hill blocking the view of whats at the other side of the crest. So since you don't have a picture of the future, but you do of the past, your comments couldn't possibly be anything other than the one above.

But just because you and me and all the other common people can't see at all what's on the other side of the hill, it doesn't matter that there aren't people there doing stuff already, things we are about to see in a year or two when we actually drives over that hill and gets our first view over the previously hidden horizon.

If I may speculate, I think Mr. Jen-Hsun Huang, founder and chief of the nVidia corporation, will be standing there with a few new CPU's based on their "Denver" concept. "within the next three or four years we’re going to bring to the mobile market performance that is nearly a hundred times higher than today’s’ PC." (That was 1.5 years ago) "ARM is now the only CPU in the world that will have deep penetration in the mobile devices, the PC, servers and supercomputers."

They have been working with this for years, and should almost be ready. He is the guy who brought us a true computer graphic evolution (through competition and fabless production), he is the guy who brought us the GPU, the concept that took graphics and gaming to a whole new dimension by its enormous performance in running massively paralleled code. He has delivered. He has reformed and evolved a whole industry. Twice. Now he is very confident it will happen again with a whole new class of processor. And while you and me can't really see this yet (we will come over that hill in a year or two), I have no doubt whatsoever that both Apple and Microsoft is sitting down at nVidias briefings and presentations (or by now, maybe even demonstrations) of the thing. And within context like this, the "migration" rumors like the one mentioned above doesn't sound like "bullsh!t" anymore.

What did the nVidia chief have to say about a possible Mac OS migration to ARM?

Q:  Is ARM on the Mac OS possible?
A: "I don’t know their plans but if you look at it from 10,000 feet, it seems to make sense, right? Because if they go Mac on ARM, they could address some of their concerns with their own SOC. So instead of paying $150, they can pay $15."

Nothing in his answer about whether it would be technically doable at all, if it would make technologically sense, that seems to be *a given* in his reply (and he has unique inside knowledge of the products ahead, nobody can deny that). No instead he focus on IP and the economic side of doing their own SoC. Which Apple seems to be quite aware about themselves, releasing their own SoC CPU's every half a year or so.

So it will be indeed very interesting to see what's behind that crest of the hill that the road of time will pass over in a year or so.

:)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 12:38:28 AM by takemehomegrandma »
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2012, 12:38:34 AM »
If it leads to other companies offering all this swanky new ARM tech in useful form factors (laptops and desktops) I'm all for it. If it just means they're looking at merging their tablet and desktop/laptop lines, meh. One Windows 8 was way the hell more than enough.
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2012, 12:51:30 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;714166
If it leads to other companies offering all this swanky new ARM tech in useful form factors (laptops and desktops) I'm all for it. If it just means they're looking at merging their tablet and desktop/laptop lines, meh. One Windows 8 was way the hell more than enough.


While I think there will be desktops and (particularly) laptops for some time still in the future, there is a shift going on where both the importance and impact of "traditional" computers like these declines. It has been going on for quite some time now (all statistics proves this, but you don't have to read boring statistics, it's enough to observe your surroundings for one day, and you'll see what I mean), and it will accelerate in a close future, that's a safe bet. And this no matter the underlying architecture. The user pattern changes, as simple as that.
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Offline kedawa

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2012, 12:55:18 AM »
I wonder if they still maintain Rosetta internally.
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2012, 01:22:12 AM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;714168
While I think there will be desktops and (particularly) laptops for some time still in the future, there is a shift going on where both the importance and impact of "traditional" computers like these declines. It has been going on for quite some time now (all statistics proves this, but you don't have to read boring statistics, it's enough to observe your surroundings for one day, and you'll see what I mean), and it will accelerate in a close future, that's a safe bet. And this no matter the underlying architecture. The user pattern changes, as simple as that.
Lord, here we go again...first off, "observing [my] surroundings" paints a very different picture than "all statistics." I know (and see in the general public) at least as many people who use laptops primarily as use tablets, and I know many more people who are primarily desktop users. I don't know a single person who is exclusively a tablet user, but I know a lot of people who use "traditional" computers but don't have a tablet (myself included.) So if we're going simply off of personally observed reality, as you suggest, I'd have to say that "all statistics" are fairly bunk.

Even giving them the benefit of the doubt, my experiences suggest that the often-quoted trends don't tell close to the whole story. Certainly tablet sales have boomed in the past couple years, but I suspect that's as much because the past couple years is how long it's been since tablets started being not total crap and had the full force of the Apple marketing machine to make them look cool. And laptop and desktop sales have declined. But that doesn't say anything about actual day-to-day use patterns.

I have laptops that are five to ten years old that work like new, and that are perfectly usable for daily basic-use stuff like web browsing and email, not to mention the wide assortment of other software they can run perfectly well. Desktops, even moreso. So the simple fact that people aren't buying as many laptops and desktops as they used to doesn't really say anything about how many people are using them (particularly when you consider that desktops reached a pretty fair saturation point for basic use somewhere in the mid-Core 2 era.)

And I don't think it's anything like a "safe bet" that tablet growth is just going to continue to accelerate forever and ever. Tablets are in a boom phase right now; it started when the iPad made them suddenly cool, and it's been fed by the fact that damn near every manufacturer in the industry has been trying to get in on the Hot New Thing. But every boom eventually goes bust, or sometimes just settles down quietly. When the novelty rush wears off, tablet sales will stabilize at a level the market can actually support, long-term. I don't know where that will be, but I know quite certainly that it won't continue indefinitely at the growth rate it's seen over the two and a half years since the iPad's release, much less accelerate, because if it does it will outpace global population growth. That is quite simply not going to happen.

Use patterns change, but only to the extent that users let them. In the end, people will settle on the solutions that are best for them, whether or not that's what tablet evangelists want to see.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 04:16:15 AM by commodorejohn »
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Offline Iggy

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2012, 01:34:28 AM »
Thanks John,
Because if it doesn't have a keyboard I really don't want it.
And to be honest, I don't care what kind of CPU it has as long as its powerful enough for my day to day uses.
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Offline persia

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2012, 02:17:02 AM »
What would be the point?


Quote from: kedawa;714171
I wonder if they still maintain Rosetta internally.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2012, 02:20:09 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;714175
And to be honest, I don't care what kind of CPU it has as long as its powerful enough for my day to day uses.
Well, personally I would like to see some more variety in computer hardware again. I've just been perpetually frustrated by the fact that all these manufacturers are rolling out progressively sweeter ARM hardware and refusing to do anything with it besides tablets and smartphones...

Quote from: persia;714177
What would be the point?
The same could be asked about why they maintained x86 builds of OSX before they even had any plans to switch to Intel. Not every internal project at a company is directly tied to current business prospects.
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Offline Lurch

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2012, 03:17:02 AM »
Arm leaps forward, elbow dives under, shoulder hits square on...
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Offline kedawa

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2012, 04:26:21 AM »
Quote from: persia;714177
What would be the point?


To run x86 code on ARM obviously.
 

Offline persia

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Offline spirantho

Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2012, 01:50:51 PM »
I can imagine Apple's legacy support... an ARM emulating an Intel emulating a PowerPC emulating a 68K!
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Offline psxphill

Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2012, 01:53:26 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;714178
The same could be asked about why they maintained x86 builds of OSX before they even had any plans to switch to Intel. Not every internal project at a company is directly tied to current business prospects.

I think it was always the plan, in the meantime it served as a stick to beat Motorola/IBM with.
 
Back when people knew about computers, they had to differentiate on technology. Apple didn't use those stupid Intel processors that IBM picked, because they were different to IBM.
 
They needed to wait until enough people wouldn't care that it had an Intel chip instead of something from Motorola/IBM & they now just rely on the case design and UI to differentiate.
 
They also had to wait for Intel to bury the p4. It wouldn't surprise me if Apple motivated Intel to produce something better.
 

Offline WolfToTheMoon

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2012, 03:56:19 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;714178


The same could be asked about why they maintained x86 builds of OSX before they even had any plans to switch to Intel. Not every internal project at a company is directly tied to current business prospects.



Steve Jobs planned and wanted for Apple to switch to Intel x86 as early as late 90s. He was personally very dissatisfied with Motorola and their PPC chips and since Motorola also lost a lot of money when Jobs killed the clone market, there was no love between the two.
 

Offline bbond007

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2012, 05:13:15 PM »
Quote from: persia;714218
And interesting enough, the idea of switching Macs to ARM is lighting up the news now....

http://www.decryptedtech.com/news/is-apple-planning-to-move-their-macs-to-arm.html

http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple-mulls-switching-dropping-intel-for-macs

http://www.zdnet.com/apple-semiconductors-brave-new-macs-7000006977/


Does that mean I'll have to jailbreak my computer to do anything useful?

I was running geekbench on one of my older dual processor computers and I searched the net to see what else was equivalent. IPhone 5 was the exact same score.

So you have the power of a computer in your hand but you are sandboxed into Apple's little world where you can't even download some file off a basic html website like Aminet (which I do with my 1200 all the time).
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2012, 06:13:13 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;714221
I think it was always the plan, in the meantime it served as a stick to beat Motorola/IBM with.
That really doesn't make a lot of sense, considering how many years they spent on PowerPC and how much they loved to place themselves in opposition to Intel. I seriously doubt that twelve years of PowerPC was just a phase they were going through while they plotted how best to dump the technology they'd invested all that time and money in.

Quote from: WolfToTheMoon;714224
Steve Jobs planned and wanted for Apple to  switch to Intel x86 as early as late 90s. He was personally very  dissatisfied with Motorola and their PPC chips and since Motorola also  lost a lot of money when Jobs killed the clone market, there was no love  between the two.
Got a reference for that? Granted Jobs was a capricious whacko when it came to picking directions for the company, I wouldn't be surprised if he just up and decided that he wanted to change architectures, but the period from the late '90s to the laying to rest of PPC Macs in 2006 spanned a whole three new generations of PowerPC Macs (G3, G4, and G5,) all of which were touted as the best thing since sliced bread and way cooler than pokey old x86. These claims that Apple was secretly planning to get all buddy-buddy with Intel even while they were roundly abusing them in the press really just don't seem to fit.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 06:15:16 PM by commodorejohn »
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