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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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ARM leaps forward!
« on: October 31, 2012, 02:35:09 PM »
This post is probably most interesting to AROS currently (and to everyone else interested in general computer technology evolution of course ;)):

Just days after the Exynos 5 Dual CPU made its debut in Samsung's new Chromebook (we will most certainly see it in a future Galaxy IV phone as well), the worlds first Cortex-A15 ARM CPU showing truly impressive performance, ARM officially launches the "Next Generation" 64-bit ARMv8 architecture (backards compatible to ARMv7):

"ARM Launches Cortex-A50 Series, the World’s Most Energy-Efficient 64-bit Processors"
http://www.arm.com/about/newsroom/arm-launches-cortex-a50-series-the-worlds-most-energy-efficient-64-bit-processors.php

These are the first two ARMv8 cores available for licensing from ARM themselves. Here is a summary:

Cortex-A53: ~1x "today’s superphone" performance using 1/4 of the power
"The most efficient ARM application processor ever"

Cortex-A57: ~3x "today’s superphone" performance using 1x of the power
"Provides computer performance comparable to a legacy PC,  while operating in a mobile power budget"

And like before with big.LITTLE, these cores can be combined in various ways in a single CPU chip: "The Cortex-A53 processor combined with the Cortex-A57 and big.LITTLE processing technology will enable platforms with extreme performance range while radically reducing the energy consumption"

Among those CPU manufacturers that is going to make their own products based on these cores you see Broadcom, Calxeda, HiSilicon, Samsung and STMicroelectronics, and a bit surprisingly AMD:

"AMD has signed a license for a 64-bit processor design from ARM, ending its exclusive commitment to x86"
http://www.techworld.com.au/article/440450/amd_sell_arm-based_server_chips_2014/

Other big players making CPU's based on this new 64-bit ARMv8 architecture you'll find Applied Micro, Cavium and of course nVidia.

nVidia kind of shook the ground in the industry when they announced their future ARM strategy together with Microsoft almost two years ago.

This one is IMHO the most interesting one, the one I personally am most curious about. These CPU's ("Denver" core) will be "designed to support future products ranging from personal computers and servers to workstations and supercomputers", "we are designing a high-performing ARM CPU core in combination with our massively parallel GPU cores to create a new class of processor"

According to this blog they are looking to go head-to-head with x86: "Denver frees PCs, workstations and servers from the hegemony and inefficiency of the x86 architecture.  For several years, makers of high-end computing platforms have had no choice about instruction-set architecture.  The only option was the x86 instruction set with variable-length instructions, a small register set, and other features that interfered with modern compiler optimizations, required a larger area for instruction decoding, and substantially reduced energy efficiency.

Denver provides a choice.   System builders can now choose a high-performance processor based on a RISC instruction set with modern features such as fixed-width instructions, predication, and a large general register file.   These features enable advanced compiler techniques and simplify implementation, ultimately leading to higher performance and a more energy-efficient processor."


And I think this is a lot bigger deal for nVidia than most people think, they are making something completely different out of it than "just" putting out another "CPU core with GPU" to the market. In this very interesting blog/interview (read it, really, do it!), nVidia chief Jen-Hsun Huang describes it as an upcoming paradigm shift, and a "re-invention" of the whole company:

Nvidia 1.0 was PC graphics (made possible by "fab-less production").
Nvidia 2.0 was the creation of the "GPU"
Nvidia 3.0 (about to happen) is about parallel processing (in a "newish" way, as I read it)

Nvidia is for the first time designing both the CPU core(s) and GPU on their own, in-house, towards goals and a purpose they have defined themselves. That interview is 1.5 years old, and in it, Mr. Huang mentions they (a few hundred engineers) have been working internally with this for 3.5 years already. I have seen a post somewhere (can't remember) suggesting that these new chips will integrate the "GPU" and "CPU" on the silicon in a previously never seen manner, the on-chip internal data bandwidth between those parts will be enormous, it will be so considerable that those previously "separated parts" will kind of  merge in practice. Again, nVidia themselves are labeling what they are now doing with ARM/Denver as being equally significant as the fab-less chip production and the rise of the GPU concept, it will be the next step, and will constitute "Nvidia 3.0".

That's why I'm so curious to see it. It's definitely going to be more than "just another CPU-core/GPU SoC bundle, only faster". Making a faster "Tegra" won't exactly warrant a "Nvidia 3.0" label, there has got to be more than that to it.

"Every single one of this project are fully funded and the expectation is within the next three or four years [1.5 years ago] we’re going to bring to the mobile market performance that is nearly a hundred times higher than today’s’ PC. And that’s the roll out if you will of our Nvidia 3.0 strategy."

"ARM is now the only CPU in the world that will have deep penetration in the mobile devices, the PC, servers and supercomputers."

1.5 years ago he said that it takes about 5 years to design a custom CPU, and at that time they had already been working 3.5 years on it. There are many speculations about release dates, some say 2013, and that seems kind of probable.

ARM Naysayers - REPENT!

:)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 02:44:18 PM by takemehomegrandma »
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Offline TheBilgeRat

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2012, 02:44:50 PM »
Very interesting times, indeed! :)
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2012, 05:11:05 PM »
Acorn fans are, I expect, feeling slightly vindicated now.

Now if they'll only start putting any of this tech in useful form-factors such as laptops...Chromebook's a start, I guess, if you're not bound to run Google CollectAllYourDataOS on it.
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Offline runequester

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2012, 05:29:37 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;713408
Acorn fans are, I expect, feeling slightly vindicated now.

Now if they'll only start putting any of this tech in useful form-factors such as laptops...Chromebook's a start, I guess, if you're not bound to run Google CollectAllYourDataOS on it.


Bad consumer! No biscuit! :razz:


And yeah, I imagine there's all sorts of things that /could/ be done with this, that'd be wicked cool, but "consumer gadgets" are a safer market than the traditional computer market.
 

Offline TheBilgeRat

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2012, 05:59:14 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;713408
Acorn fans are, I expect, feeling slightly vindicated now.

Now if they'll only start putting any of this tech in useful form-factors such as laptops...Chromebook's a start, I guess, if you're not bound to run Google CollectAllYourDataOS on it.


Just as long as that useful form factor has 4 modems and accompanying rj-11 ports :D
 

Offline runequester

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2012, 06:06:24 PM »
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;713415
Just as long as that useful form factor has 4 modems and accompanying rj-11 ports :D


I personally refuse any consumer electronics without at least 8 phone jacks
 

Offline psxphill

Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2012, 07:51:09 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;713397
According to this blog they are looking to go head-to-head with x86

They can try to go head to head with x86, but they only really compete with the atom. So it's more likely to keep x86 out of the embedded space, than it is to increase market share.
 

Offline runequester

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2012, 08:35:00 PM »
From a business perspective, I imagine embedded devices is the money maker currently, so that might be well on purpose.
 

Offline WolfToTheMoon

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2012, 09:02:40 PM »
Quote
According to this blog they are looking to go head-to-head with x86:
"Denver frees PCs, workstations and servers from the hegemony and
inefficiency of the x86 architecture. For several years, makers of high-
end computing platforms have had no choice about instruction-set
architecture. The only option was the x86 instruction set with
variable-length instructions, a small register set, and other features
that interfered with modern compiler optimizations, required a larger
area for instruction decoding, and substantially reduced energy
efficiency.
Denver provides a choice. System builders can now choose a high-
performance processor based on a RISC instruction set with modern
features such as fixed-width instructions, predication, and a large
general register file. These features enable advanced compiler
techniques and simplify implementation, ultimately leading to higher
performance and a more energy-efficient processor."



OH, bulls...

nVidia tried for years, unsuccesfuly, to get an x86 licensing deal... Than they tried going around legal issues and designed Denver so that it translates x86 code into a custom internal machine code(that design feature will also be present in the ARM Denver core, a legacy of the x86 begginings)... And when Intel said sorry we'll still sue your asses, than they switched to ARM. Now it's all roses it seems...
 

Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2012, 10:21:44 PM »
Quote from: WolfToTheMoon;713428
OH, bulls...


According to the nVidia president in that interview, these are the things that matters to them, and the reason to their decisions (made a couple of years ago):

  • Energy efficient computing (of growing importance on all markets, not just mobile)
  • Mobile computing (one of the sides of "energy efficient computing")
  • A common platform, ranging from tiny handhelds all the way up to supercomputer
  • Unique control over the IP of that platform (the whole "eco-system" actually)
  • Not making some x86 commodity that won't ever be able to compete with Intel


ARM brings this, x86 doesn't.

"Now inside the company we say the way we distilled Nvidia 3.0 down into actions is three arms. We say go parallel, go mobile and go ARM. Now a lot of you have asked me over the years what is our CPU (central processing unit, or computer’s brain) strategy and I’ve said over the years it was ARM. And I said it so matter of factly and it almost sounded like a joke. But it was the truth. It was the same thing I was telling our company inside that our CPU strategy is ARM. I believe that ARM will do for CPUs what Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. did for foundries (the contract chip manufacturers)."

"Instead of hundreds of millions of devices, it’s several billion. And so that would make the ARM processor the most valuable instruction set architecture (or chip processing architecture) in the world."

"our strategy with Project Denver was to extend the reach of ARM beyond the mobile, the handheld computing space. To take the ARM processor, partner with them to develop a next-generation 64 bit processor to extend it so that all of computing can have the benefits of that instruction set architecture. It is backward-compatible with today’s ARM processors."

"And so everyone now sees the picture that our CPU strategy really is ARM, that we intend to take the ARM for mobile devices all the way to supercomputers. ARM is now the only CPU in the world that will have deep penetration in the mobile devices, the PC, servers and supercomputers."

"People still thought a cloud over our heads was our big battle with Intel. People said that Nvidia’s Intel chip set (MCP) business is going away and of course we announced that our dispute with Intel has been resolved. We’ve extended our cross license with Intel and the licensing revenues that would come to our company would be approximately $1.5 billion over six years. That by and large replaces and some the business that we lost with MCP."

"There are two reasons why we decided not to do x86. Aside from, well the second reason is what I said earlier that in fact it’s the wrong instruction set architecture. The first reason is simply very large of course. The world’s not waiting for us to build yet another x86 and we’re not going to go hire a bunch of the world’s best engineers so that we can wake up in the morning to go do something that somebody else has already done 25 years ago. It’s not logical. And so it’s another way of saying it’s a commodity. Intel has got every single price point covered from $10 all the way up to $1000. There is not one nook and cranny we can cover by ourselves. AMD has covered everything else."

"At AMD, they actually make perfectly good CPUs. I’ve never met a CPU at AMD that I didn’t like. They are all fine. They just can’t win."

"even if they give me rights to make an x86 chip, I will be building a commodity that at every price point they have an alternative to. And if they have an alternative to everything that I make, and it’s easier to buy from Intel, it’s just really not possible to distinguish yourself in an x86 world. And so that’s sort of the reason why, that’s one of the negative reasons why you don’t do it. But the positive reason is we all want to go make a contribution to something and make a difference in the world. I mean you’re going to go spend $1 billion in r&d, you go spend $1 billion building something that matters."

Everything makes perfect sense in my eyes.

:)
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Offline psxphill

Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2012, 10:48:54 PM »
Quote from: runequester;713427
From a business perspective, I imagine embedded devices is the money maker currently, so that might be well on purpose.

To meet x86 head on you need to be able to beat them in all of it's strong areas, not just defend your own.
 
They can complain about x86 being the wrong instruction set, but to prove it they need to launch an ARM core that can beat an i7 and they can't.
 
As soon as ARM is faster as well as cheaper and less power hungry than x86, then everyone will switch everything to it.
 

Offline WolfToTheMoon

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2012, 11:06:05 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;713430

ARM is now the only CPU in the world that will have deep penetration in the mobile devices, the PC, servers and supercomputers.


Arguably, Intel already has that with Medfield + Clover Trail and IvyBridge variants.

nVidia only really wanted to make CPUs to pair with their Tesla GPUs for a specific market and uses... Since Denver will not match Intel's Haswell/Broadwell performance it kinda begs the question how it differs from x86 Denver.
aside from a different architecture they will always be playing second fiddle to Intel... And on the ARM side of things, there are more big players than on x86, albeit maybe not one has the advantages and monopoly of Intel on x86...

And lets not forget, Intel owns an ARM license and should they decide one day to reenter that market with their fab/process advantage they could easily decimate competition...

The power usage thing is a myth, Intel proved with Medfield and Clover trail  x86 scales to sub 1W TDP while delivering A9/A15 rivaling performance  - and that with an ancient in-order Atom core
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 11:08:34 PM by WolfToTheMoon »
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 11:10:24 PM »
These are significant leaps forward for ARM.

But...a couple of things need to be pointed out.

We're still talking about sub-2.0 GHz processors here (for the moment).
PPCs were at 2.7 years ago when Apple abandoned them because they weren't getting faster quick enough. And X86 currently cruises happily above 4 GHz.

Both PPC and X86 have had 64 bit variants for several years now (while 64 bit ARM processors have been announced, but are not in production).

And Nvidia's President is known for colorful hyperbole, but the company has only limited experience designing and manufacturing CPU (while making snide comments about AMD - the only company who's products have ever topped Intel's).

Intel was so sure it didn't need ARM that it sold off its ARM designs.

And while IBM has produced some ARM processors at its foundries, you don't see them falling over themselves to pursue this either.

So Via, Nvidia, and a host of other small players say this is the next big thing.

This doesn't necessarily make it so, and until ARM has at least performance parity with other ISAs, its a little premature to crow about this.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 12:41:36 AM by Iggy »
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Offline gaula92

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2012, 11:15:57 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;713432
To meet x86 head on you need to be able to beat them in all of it's strong areas, not just defend your own.
 
They can complain about x86 being the wrong instruction set, but to prove it they need to launch an ARM core that can beat an i7 and they can't.
 
As soon as ARM is faster as well as cheaper and less power hungry than x86, then everyone will switch everything to it.



Power, power, power! The same insane obsession again and again. Computers aren't cars! When will this madness end?
Raw power approach is ugly, ineficient and...boring as hell.

Heading Intel processors (i7 or whatever, I don't care) may be impossible to beat in a raw processing power measurement. But ARM processors can't be beat for low-profile designs where power needs are crucial. And I'm not only talking phones here.

As an example: take my damn noisy and hot Intel i5-based laptop and give me a cold, silent, efficient ARM-based laptop with 1/4 the raw power. Keep raw power for yourself! All I need is a video core with HW geometry transformation engine and HW fullHD H264 & MPEG2 decoding.
You see? The ARM computer is more capable, better designed and respects the enviroment by not needing a thermonuclear plant for himself as Intel chips usually do.

Oh, I forgot! we have FULL bloated desktops with ZERO optimization or software/hardware integration, call it Windows, Mac OSX or Linux, wich need RAW processing power.
Well, here's the solution: Windows and OSX are for slaves. Since I'm not an slave but a free person with ability to use and understand how computer works, I use Linux (And Amiga OS, and Open Risc OS). What's more, I'm experimenting with Linux + Wayland these days, so no bloated Xorg for me anymore: KMS+DRM allows my new, experimental but light desktop to run with VERY few resources. That's how it's meant to be in the upcoming years.

Then again, why should I explain it in an Amiga forum? The Amiga design itself was FAR superior to the stupid "raw power" idea... It's just that hearing people defend this primitive idea of what a desktop computer is makes my blood pressure increase...
 

Offline WolfToTheMoon

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Re: ARM leaps forward!
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2012, 11:23:26 PM »
IBM is only interested in custom products for specific customers. And they would probably do such a thing with ARM if somebody came knocking at their door with a big enough bucket of money...


Freescale, on the other hand, has falling revenue and is bleeding money. It's only a matter of time before they switch to supporting just one viable architecture and it's no brainer that PPC is not it.