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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« on: October 29, 2012, 04:20:20 PM »
Up until fall 2009, MorphOS supported only the following hardware: Pegasos 1, Pegasos 2, Efika 5200.

While being good quality hardware, they never offered the performance of similar PPC based machines at the time. Sure, the Pegasos 2 is faster than the AmigaOne's from Eyetech, and slightly faster than a Sam 460 clocked at the same frequency (in some areas more than others), but a Mac Mini G4 @ 1.42GHz has been measured to be almost 2x as fast in some areas than a Pegasos 2. The older Pegasos 1, and the kind of limited Efika 5200 fell even further behind in comparisons of course.

These machines were also being manufactured in relatively small numbers before their production ended forever, thus putting an upper limit on potential growth for MorphOS. The limited availability (and increased demand from OS4 users) was also making them expensive even at the second hand market, thus failing to give a "Bang for the Buck" ratio comparable to second hand Mac HW.

The MorphOS 2.x branch evolved, and when it reached v2.4, the MorphOS Team introduced support for their first Mac PPC machine, the Mac Mini. Two things happened with this:

  • There was an instant (but temporary) jump in the number of licenses sold. Many of those probably came from already existing MorphOS users sitting on the fence to upgrade from Pegasos/Efika to faster Mac HW.
  • There was also a permanent increase in the pace of new registrations sold, the tilt of the growth graph went steeper, and this was not temporary.
During the 2.5 years that followed, MorphOS evolved, new features and improvements were being added, and support for eMac and PowerMac was introduced.

Early this summer, MorphOS 3.0 was released with many new improvements and features. One of the most anticipated features was that MorphOS for the first time added support for a real Laptop computer in the shape of the PowerBook (the 5 latest models produced by Apple). Again, two things happened with this:

  • There was an instant (but temporary) jump in the number of licenses sold. Many of those probably came from already existing MorphOS users sitting on the fence to get a PowerBook laptop.
  • There was also (as it seems today) a permanent increase in the pace of new registrations sold, the tilt of the growth graph went even steeper than before.
Here is a picture (based on "koszer's" excellent trackings of MorphOS licenses sold, click to make it larger):



We can easily see how some events both gave a temporary jump in amount of registrations sold, but also an increase in the unit sales pace in a more permanent manner.

From when MorphOS was only available on those "custom", low volume motherboards, made by a small company, untill today when MorphOS is available for various second hand mainstream HW (including laptops), the growth rate in MorphOS license sales has gone from ~11 per month, to more than 1 per day, in what appears to be a lasting, permanent way.

If the graph will indeed be continuing as it has done since the latest "temporary jump", it will mean that MorphOS will have crossed the "2000 licenses sold" mark during August next year.

On the other hand, had it remained on the limited availability, small company HW with poor bang/buck ratio, then August 2013 would probably have meant a maximum of 1100 licenses sold, provided that the sales graph would have remained the same during all these years, which is unlikely, given the limited numbers of machines produced, machines breaking down, the Pegasos/Efika market for MorphOS probably being kind of saturated back in 2009 already, and the fact that the performance of those boards were kind of low even back by 2004 standards, so closer to 600 licenses sold (or somewhere slightly above) seems more likely.

This "August 2013" difference will largely be thanks to the MorphOS Team's smart decision of going for the second hand Mac PPC market, aiming for mainstream rather than small company custom HW, making the most out of what PPC had to offer when it comes to performance (only G5 machines are faster) and flavors of the HW; we have big-box expandable PowerMac (up to 2GHz with 3rd party accellerator cards), tiny but quite powerful Mac Mini, and of course, the Laptops in the shape of PowerBook. Ibook is coming in the next release. On MorphZone.org we have seen several new faces, not only Amigans cross-migrating from "other camps", but actually a few coming from "outside".

Why do I say this? Isn't all of this obvious?

I'm afraid not. There are still people (yes, in 2012) advocating in favor of expensive, poor bang/buck, low volume, custom built by small cellar-based companies, Hardware. This is the route the OS4 team took, and while the MorphOS sales figures probably wouldn't impress anyone outside the "Amiga Market", I highly doubt that OS4 can present a sales graph and sales growth rate pace that even slightly resembles the picture above.

Imagine if MorphOS had been on even more mainstream and powerful HW, like x86. Now it isn't, and since it's currently locked to PPC, it has been a great decision of making the most out of it by supporting the old mainstream HW that is available from everywhere at peanut money.

The MorphOS Team did it right!

:)

(Note: The graphs I drew on top of Koszer's are not based on calculations, they are hand drawn, and all numbers I have put in there are interpretations from the graphics, not number data. This should be good enough for trend spotting though. The original picture is of course based on pure statistics! :))
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline alexh

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2012, 04:33:47 PM »
Apple were not the last company to produce mainstream PowerPC based hardware but most since have been "locked" i.e. Xbox360, Wii, Wii-U, Playstation3 etc. and unlikely to get ports of MorphOS.

So what is instore for the future for Mainstream HW for MorphOS? Support for emulators such as QEMU and PearPC?

Should it attempt to "unlock" itself from the PowerPC architecture?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 04:37:07 PM by alexh »
 

Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2012, 04:48:13 PM »
Quote from: alexh;713069
Apple were not the last company to produce mainstream PowerPC based hardware but most since have been "locked" i.e. Xbox360, Wii, Wii-U, Playstation3 etc. and unlikely to get ports of MorphOS.

So what is instore for the future for Mainstream HW for MorphOS? Support for emulators such as QEMU and PearPC?

Should it attempt to "unlock" itself from the PowerPC architecture?


Well, the PPC is unarguably dead as a desktop/laptop architecture.

The Mac HW will of course have much to offer MorphOS for quite some time still, but we will inevitable reach a point in the future where MorphOS basically have two options:

1) Roll over and die
2) Migrate to an architecture with a pulse (<- Link! ;))

Who knows what will happen in the future, if a migration will really take place? But at least for now, I'm quite happy to run MorphOS 3.1 on my Mac Mini!

:)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline A1260

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2012, 05:05:15 PM »
if morphos have gone the x86 route instead of the mac route. even i would been using morphos today instead of windows, and many more would have done the same. so i cant agree 100% on the 'MorphOS Team did it right' thing yet.... morphos better get it's arse on x86 soon or it will be no better of than os4.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 05:08:37 PM by A1260 »
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2012, 05:09:09 PM »
Only a simple question to you. It is a nice graph with a "booming" MorphOS community but where are the users that are registrating their systems? On Morphzone are not many new users visible. How do you explain that?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 05:21:16 PM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2012, 05:32:12 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;713072
Only a simple question to you. It is a nice graph with a "booming" MorphOS community but where are the users that are registrating their systems? On Morphzone are not many new users visible. How do you explain that?

:confused:

I wasn't talking about numbers of users, neither people's choice of forums, or the difference in activity on various web forums spread out in the community. Amiga.org and AmigaWorld.net has more activity than MorphZone.org, much thanks to more registered users and more "IRC-style" posting.

Edit:
To answer your question: I suppose we are on *all* those forums (and many others as well, there are many local forums in the world as well, and there is no law saying you are required to do a lot of postings online just because you run a certain OS)! Who cares?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 05:37:54 PM by takemehomegrandma »
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline som99

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2012, 05:34:30 PM »
Nice little read, thanks. Im sitting on the 1.42GHz Mac mini so only 32MB vram but im quite happy with it and MorphOS, im thinking of using a decent PATA SSD in it also, I am trying to get my hands on a PowerMac but all ive found are Geforce ones so far (within driving distance).

But I would also like to see a migration but since the x86 market is BIG and full of hardware that needs drivers I would think focusing on ARM would be a great way to go, for me TI's OMAP boards would be a good pick of the bunch, cheep and easy to get your hands on and a nice userbase and since they use PowerVR for graphics the route would be fast and nice.

So my vote would go for ARM and OMAP boards IF AT ALL MOVING TO A NEW architecture, but that's just my pieces of eight.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 06:20:41 PM by som99 »
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2012, 05:39:28 PM »
I, for one, am completely tired of hearing this same phrase "Migrate to an architecture with a pulse".
 
Currently, PPCs are available that completely outstrip all currently available ARM designs (or any that are likely to be introduced in the near future).
That leaves only X86 as a possible direction for ISA change and I DO NOT want to go that route.
 
We have survived this long without adopting the archetecture of our primary competitor.
 
The poster rightly points out that adopting low cost Mac hardware may have influenced increased adoption of MorphOS.
Fine, then there are plenty of G5 machines available at a very low cost that would be far faster then anything offered in the OS4 market or under the ARM archectecture.
 
And, as low cost proprietary design go, I LIKE what A-eon has accomplished with the X1000. Is it overpriced? Yes.
Could a sucessor be built at lower cost?
Read this VERY carefully, I am absolutely sure it (or they) will be.
 
If you want X86, please by all means adopt and support AROS.
 
But have you noticed that AROS is now moving to 68K, ARM, and PPC?
 
Please stop trying to increase the difficulty in supporting and developing my favorite operating system.
 
An ISA change is no trivial matter AND it eliminates backward compatibility with all PPC software without another emulation layer.
 
A move like this would set MorphOS development back at least a couple years. And it would make targeting specific hardware extremely difficult.
 
And you should keep that in mind, because unlike Windows or OSX, MorphOS developers can NOT afford to develop drivers for all the hardware available within a specific ISA and must select specific platforms.
 
You complain that our current hardware is dated? Personally, I think its damned good and I am willing to benchmark my MorphOS system against any OS4 system including the X1000.
I know that will invite the inevitable complaint that I'm not drawing comparisons to AROS.
That is because I have no problem co-existing with AROS and even using and supporting it.
 
You lunk heads do realize that one of the MorphOS developers works on AROS? Don't you? And the competition and cross development with AOS4 doesn't hurt either.
 
So, think about what you're calling into question VERY carefully.
The more I use MorphOS, and the better I get to know its developers, the greater is my faith and conviction that they have made the correct choices for our community.
 
I don't think continuing to move in this direction would be a mistake.
 
But a change of course could be.
 
Jim
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 06:44:24 PM by Iggy »
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2012, 05:48:38 PM »
@Iggy

OMG, where on earth did all that come from? Having a bad day? Then please don't take it out on me, and please don't try to change the topic already!

:whack:
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2012, 05:49:31 PM »
I think I can remember Geit estimating it would need 5 years to port MOS to another platform (X86 or ARM) and that would be 5 years without any updates because all would be busy with the migration. So obviously MOS was never designed to be (easy) portable like f.e. Aros. My final conclusion is MOS will (propably) never be ported to a different architecture because of lack of resources. For people that can live with PPC it is a good choice, when you want something to run on modern new standard hardware you only have the option to use Aros.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2012, 05:59:17 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;713079
@Iggy
 
OMG, where on earth did all that come from? Having a bad day? Then please don't take it out on me, and please don't try to change the topic already!
 
:whack:

I am in no way trying to change the topic.
You brought it up and you keep repeating it while not even giving credit to your own points.
 
Mac hardware was sucessful?
GREAT lets keep using it.
 
And, btw, I've been following this really close so if you think I'm taking this too seriously its because if the developer take outside advice too seriously they may make a mistake that costs us the future of the OS.
 
I'm not having a bad day (except for the hurricane outside - which is now about at its peak). I'm just aware of a few things you aren't that are going on behind the scenes right now.
 
You really need to leave this topic alone and let the MorphOS developers decide how to continue forward.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2012, 06:01:06 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;713080
I think I can remember Geit estimating it would need 5 years to port MOS to another platform (X86 or ARM) and that would be 5 years without any updates because all would be busy with the migration. So obviously MOS was never designed to be (easy) portable like f.e. Aros. My final conclusion is MOS will (propably) never be ported to a different architecture because of lack of resources. For people that can live with PPC it is a good choice, when you want something to run on modern new standard hardware you only have the option to use Aros.

Thank you Olaf,
I was being kind.
In the interum our OS would languish.
 
Like you said, want something different? Its already there.
Don't F'up my OS.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2012, 06:01:17 PM »
@OlafS3

Indeed MorphOS is PPC based, and AROS is not MorphOS. The MorphOS team has made the very best out of the situation by supporting the Mac HW. Why the flames? What's your point?

:confused:

Running MorphOS on PPC Mac HW is *great*, it's way ahead of any "competition" no matter CPU architecture, it's by far the best, most feature rich and competent Amiga NG option available. And the HW price usually ranges from Free - $250, which is a very cheap price to pay and totally worth it considering what you get.

:)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

phoenixkonsole

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2012, 06:07:56 PM »
I vote for this as next HW:
http://www.facebook.com/indiegoretro?fref=ts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz_1TN4JqTA

I would like to add MOS and AmigaOS4 to the list of installable OS.. CPU architecture doesn't matter. Wie will HAndLe it : )
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2012, 06:10:27 PM »
No I do not want to say anything bad about it. It is a very good OS for the hardware it is designed for. Propably much better optimized than Aros and with a very good 68k integration. Nothing bad to say about it. But a complete architecture change is not very propable (because of needed resources)