Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma

[takemehomegrandma]

er..  OK..  Not sure why anyone would ever do that ..  But thanks for that... :crazy:

Why? Because you for some reason would want to recreate a working model of some hardware using software. Emulation! In this case some kind of a "virtual" 68k CPU.

Obviously, if the option is available to re-compile, that's great.  But it's frequently not the option.

That is de-facto what MorphOS does before running an Amiga 68k app (or dynamically while running). Not from sources obviously, but from binaries. No 68k opcodes are being executed, they are all PPC native, running natively on the OS, which runs native on the HW.

However, the question about the different emulation layers in MorphOS has been answered already here..

Indeed, if you want to explore the joys of emulation in MorphOS, you have numerous options; like UAE, C64, Sega systems, MAME, etc, etc.

However, if you just want to run none-HW-banging Amiga apps on MorphOS, then there is no need for emulation.

[takemehomegrandma]

@danbeaver

Somehow I just *knew* that someone would boil the "emulation" issue down to trade marks! :lol:

"If programs are running on an Amiga(TM) gear, it's 'native', if not, it's 'emulated'." :insane:

:lol:

[psxphill]

That is de-facto what MorphOS does before running an Amiga 68k app (or dynamically while running). Not from sources obviously, but from binaries. No 68k opcodes are being executed, they are all PPC native, running natively on the OS, which runs native on the HW.

No 68k emulator executes 68k opcodes, thats the point. It has to translate them to native opcodes. That is what an emulator does. MorphOS just has a 68k emulator built in.

[Linde]

That is de-facto what MorphOS does before running an Amiga 68k app (or dynamically while running). Not from sources obviously, but from binaries. No 68k opcodes are being executed, they are all PPC native, running natively on the OS, which runs native on the HW.

Get an idea.

[danbeaver]

Thank you, you have finally agreed with us!  MorphOS is an emulation layer allowing Amiga software to run on non-Amiga hardware.

So are we done?

[Iggy]

Thank you, you have finally agreed with us! MorphOS is an emulation layer allowing Amiga software to run on non-Amiga hardware.
 
So are we done?

We should be, since its a premise I've never denied.
But then I consider it a feature I like, so its not a issue with me.
It would be foolish to incorporate backward compatible hardware if this solution is entirely adequate.

[danbeaver]

We should be, since its a premise I've never denied.
But then I consider it a feature I like, so its not a issue with me.
It would be foolish to incorporate backward compatible hardware if this solution is entirely adequate.

I'm sorry you thought this was directed at you, Iggy, but it was not; your position is clear and acceptable; no dilemma there!

[Iggy]

I'm sorry you thought this was directed at you, Iggy, but it was not; your position is clear and acceptable; no dilemma there!

No, I understand your point of view. I'm just not sure why anyone would question it.
The only time MorphOS is not using emulation is when its running all native code.
 
We're just lucky that the emulators used in our community are as capable as they are. A lot of work has gone into this stuff and its shows the persistance and commitment Amiga users have to continuing to enjoy their software and even see it continue to expand.
 
With no major backer, our community still continues to produce new hardware and software as well as modern variants of AmigaOS.
If anything, the size of our community is expanding as old users return and new users explore.
 
Another post ask where you'd like to be in Amiga history.
Well we know we can't change the past, but right now is one of the more exciting periods I've experienced. We've real hope to see things continue to grow and expand.
 
I really hope you legacy users take the time to explore the NG offerings.
As we hone emulation of legacy hardware and provide a compatible API for futher development we move the Amiga market forward.
 
"Amiga", to you its a beloved hardware platform.
To me, its either a much abused trademark or an environment with a specific look, feel, and programming interface.
 
No, I'm not using an Amiga. I've moved forward.

[psxphill]

It would be foolish to incorporate backward compatible hardware if this solution is entirely adequate.

Both AmigaOS 4 & MorphOS both require obsolete hardware to run.
 
Running a PPC emulator on X64 is the best solution. It won't be long before someone emulates the Mac's that MorphOS runs on.

[danbeaver]

Iggy, I like your point of view.  I have a Mac-Mini G4 with a registered MorphOS 3.1 version that I used for 2 weeks as part of my curiosity.  It is slick, fast and works well for the few applications it has.  I had more fun on my A4000T all maxed out and running OS 4.1, so I have the little Mini set out to the side of my office.  

For grunt related "work issues" I have a "2 cycle PC" on one wall of my office and by A4000T on the other. I use the term "2 cycle" because I never build a computer within 1 of Moore's Cycles; I found the best price/performance 1.5 to 3 years behind.  then every 2 cycles I gut the box and upgrade the motherboard, video and whatever.

When I want real what-you-see-is-what-you-get, I use my Amiga and usually Final Writer or PageStream; there is no equivalent, in my mind, in the Intel world.  Don't know about Macs, I can't build them (well maybe now, but then the software costs would kill me).  Heck, I use Word '97 on my "PC" along with Acrobat 9.4 and shareware stuff.  I bought IRIS OCR and Nitro Pro 8 recently, but I hate software I have to pay to update every year!

Sorry, off thread.

[Thorham]

I really hope you legacy users take the time to explore the NG offerings.

Not interested at all.

"Amiga", to you its a beloved hardware platform.

Indeed, and that's what I'll stick to, to Amiga.

No, I'm not using an Amiga. I've moved forward.

I use an A1200, but I've moved forward, too: I bought a PC that flies around anything next gen 'Amiga' so fast it ain't funny.

[desiv]

Why? Because you for some reason would want to recreate a working model of some hardware using software. Emulation! In this case some kind of a "virtual" 68k CPU.

I'm not sure where you keep getting this idea from?

While I appreciate emulation, especially when done correctly.  It's a wonderful technology.
I don't generally use emulation for my Amiga related fun.  (Just for some prep and testing)

What I don't understand is why you are so petrified of emulation being tied to MorphOS.

Emulation is a technology.  MorphOS uses it when it needs it.
It's very very smart in the way it minimizes it's use, yet leverages it when needed.

I think that's a good thing.  Yet you seem to keep being bothered by the thought...

That's interesting...

desiv

[Karlos]

Correction: ShapeShifter doesnt emulate Mac OS. It only emulates run time environment for Mac OS so it thinks it is running on a real Mac.

It should be possible re-implement Mac OS API on Amiga and run Mac OS binaries without emulation.

Shapeshifter is an interesting case. Back in the day, we called it an emulator because it "emulated" another system but in hindsight, it wasn't that clear cut. In today's parlance, I guess it could be viewed as an example of paravirtualization. Both the guest and host OS is patched in places by shapeshifter in order to make things work, but beyond intercepting traps, hardware calls and some patched guest OS functions, the binary code for both the MacOS and the executables running on it are basically running "natively" on the 68K processor in the Amiga.

If said patching were not necessary, then it would be straightforward virtualization.

[bloodline]

Both AmigaOS 4 & MorphOS both require obsolete hardware to run.
 
Running a PPC emulator on X64 is the best solution. It won't be long before someone emulates the Mac's that MorphOS runs on.

Anyone tried PearPC?

[Iggy]

Not interested at all.

Not a problem, as there are plenty of other more open minded users.
 

I use an A1200, but I've moved forward, too: I bought a PC that flies around anything next gen 'Amiga' so fast it ain't funny.

 
I actually downgrade my X86 systems by breaking down and selling the parts of the Socket AM3/Phenom II system I had.
Right now I'm collecting parts for a hackintosh, but my primary X86 system is a lowly Atom based netbook.
 
So my X86 system doesn't fly circle around my PPC hardware. And I'm exploring ARM (which also isn't that powerful).
 
What I really like about run MorphOS is the fast boot times and the ability to run some of my older software (with, of course, improved performance)
 
As far as performance goes, I have a balance that suits my purposes.
 
Funny, but I find myself agreeing more with danbeaver than those of you who are arguing against his basic proposition.
 
Frankly, I'd say use what works for you and keeps you happy.

[Thorham]

Not a problem, as there are plenty of other more open minded users.

It has nothing to do with being closed minded. I like classic Amiga computers and simply don't have any interest in PPC+AOS4/MorphOS, just like I have no interest in graphics and sound cards for classic Amiga computers, or watching professional sports for that matter. Lack of interest doesn't imply closed mindedness.

I actually downgrade my X86 systems by breaking down and selling the parts of the Socket AM3/Phenom II system I had.

And I use my PC as a simple and boring workhorse.

As far as performance goes, I have a balance that suits my purposes.

I don't need the fastest PC either, which is why I didn't spend a lot on mine.

Funny, but I find myself agreeing more with danbeaver than those of you who are arguing against his basic proposition.

Eh, what was that again? Too many posts

Frankly, I'd say use what works for you and keeps you happy.

Always. Clearly there's simply a difference in hobby and needs here