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Author Topic: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma  (Read 14725 times)

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Offline danbeaverTopic starter

Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« on: October 14, 2012, 12:35:39 AM »
OK,

Here is the thread, so go at it: When you run software written for one computer (let us say an Amiga) on another computer (for instance a PC, MAC, or DEC PDP 11/40), what is it?
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2012, 12:45:00 AM »
If it runs well...fun.
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Offline danbeaverTopic starter

Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2012, 12:54:33 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;711326
If it runs well...fun.


"Fun" isn't an option on an Apple or a PC (a PDP 11/40, maybe).
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2012, 12:54:42 AM »
What would it be if not emulation?
 

Offline CritAnime

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Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2012, 01:01:56 AM »
How do you mean? Are you talking about running software in an emulated environment or talking about running that software natively on the hardware?
 
If your talking about running software natively then it's not emulation as your doing it without any external support. so long as there is a version of the language for the target platform it's all good. Otherwise you would need to port it to a language supported by the target platform.
 
This is a simplified version so don't shoot me if you feel this is inacruate. but I am on my 5th night shift and I can't be bothered now lol.

Offline lassie

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Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2012, 01:05:56 AM »
Quote from: CritAnime;711332
How do you mean? Are you talking about running software in an emulated environment or talking about running that software natively on the hardware?
 
If your talking about running software natively then it's not emulation as your doing it without any external support. so long as there is a version of the language for the target platform it's all good. Otherwise you would need to port it to a language supported by the target platform.
 
This is a simplified version so don't shoot me if you feel this is inacruate. but I am on my 5th night shift and I can't be bothered now lol.


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Offline desiv

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Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2012, 01:12:43 AM »
Quote from: CritAnime;711332
How do you mean? Are you talking about running software in an emulated environment or talking about running that software natively on the hardware?
So, by "natively," you mean PPC opcodes only running on a PPC system.
Yep, that's native.
68k opcodes running on a PPC?  There's some level of emulation.

Now, as I've said, if it's done well, it doesn't matter what it's called.
It's very kual.  I just think it's very kual emulation.  ;-)

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Offline danbeaverTopic starter

Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2012, 01:13:21 AM »
Can someone help me?  What does it mean "to run software natively?"

WikiPedia: In computing, the "native" adjective refers to software or data formats supported by a certain system with minimal computational overhead and additional components. This word is used in such terms as native mode or native code.

Would not an "API" be an additional component?
 

Offline CritAnime

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Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2012, 01:24:36 AM »
Quote from: lassie;711334
Hi mate are you having some fun with your Stealth Accelerator :)

It's fun. Makes things zip along until you run into a game that refuses to work properly because of it lol. But then I have a switch that dissables it so no biggie.
 
Quote from: desiv;711335
So, by "natively," you mean PPC opcodes only running on a PPC system.
Yep, that's native.
68k opcodes running on a PPC? There's some level of emulation.
 
Now, as I've said, if it's done well, it doesn't matter what it's called.
It's very kual. I just think it's very kual emulation. ;-)
 
desiv

I suppose natively was the wrong wording. I perceived it that he was wanting to run things that seemed both hardware and OS agnostic. Kind of cross platform stuff. Kind of like how we have several languages that are cross platform.
 
However, like you stated, if he is wanting to run something that was intended for a 68k system on say x64 hardware then yes a layer of emulation would be be needed. Kind of like when Apple went from OS9 to OSX and they had that compatability layer which was a emulated version of OS9.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 01:26:47 AM by CritAnime »
 

Offline Kesa

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Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2012, 01:43:46 AM »
Quote from: desiv;711335
So, by "natively," you mean PPC opcodes only running on a PPC system.
Yep, that's native.
68k opcodes running on a PPC?  There's some level of emulation.

Now, as I've said, if it's done well, it doesn't matter what it's called.
It's very kual.  I just think it's very kual emulation.  ;-)

desiv

I like the way you said cool as kual. It makes you sound badass.
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Offline desiv

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Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2012, 01:50:25 AM »
Quote from: Kesa;711342
I like the way you said cool as kual. It makes you sound badass.
Only because "RAD" makes me sound too old..  ;-)

desiv
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2012, 02:41:39 AM »
It's a spectrum, really. If you have something that runs in binary form on another system of its same processor architecture, and all you need to do is handle its system calls, that's more of a compatibility layer than emulation (though in a sense you are emulating the target OS, but not completely.) If, say, it uses a different ABI for some reason (say, it uses trap instructions instead of subroutine calls for system functions,) and you have to do more lower-level translation, you're inching closer to emulation territory. Then there's situations where, say, the application isn't running natively because it's on a different architecture, but the system is the same, like Mac OS X on Intel running PowerPC software through Rosetta - that's emulation of the code, but the system calls are copied straight across. At the far end is full system emulation, where the whole machine, OS, and application are running in emulation on an entirely different system. Suffice to say that "it's complicated."

If you're running it on a PDP-11/40, what it is is kickass.
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Offline danbeaverTopic starter

Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2012, 03:03:15 AM »
Uh, does it run in another form than "binary?" Yes, the ENIAC ran in base 10, oh Nevermind...

Excluding programs like JAVA which "aim" to run across platforms from their "inception," running software written for one OS and one "hardware set" is not like recompiling Linux to run on various "hardware sets." The AmigaOS was written poorly at first and "banged the hardware" initially.  They then learned to make system calls as the various hardware improved; BUT these system calls were not meant to be to Apple hardware.  The AmigaOS was not written to be recompiled to run on Intel or ARM cpu's.  From the initial A1000 to the A4000, there is a fundamentally shared set of custom hardware chips that describe an Amiga.

Any secondary level of modification that runs it on other hardware is emulation.  Even the folks with the new PPC hardware have the grace to call them "AmigaNG."
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2012, 03:09:42 AM »
Quote from: danbeaver;711348
Uh, does it run in another form than "binary?" Yes, the ENIAC ran in base 10, oh Nevermind...
In this kind of discussion running in "binary" is used to mean running the binary executable natively on the host CPU, as opposed to emulating it...
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Is It Emulation or Not -- the Dilemma
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2012, 03:52:20 AM »
When the system used to run the emulation is significantly more powerful then the original hardware and the emulation runs flawlessly there isn't much to argue against this approach.
Therefore, when I see something running under AmigaForever (often BETTER then it would on some native hardware), or on a PPC based system running AOS4.1 or MorphOS, I get a perverse delight in knowing I can take this stuff to the next level.
 
After all fire created with a bic lighter is just as useful as fire created by rubbing two sticks together, and much easier to implement.
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