Was Commodore forced into bankruptcy by the banks?

[Digiman]

I would like to find out the facts and potential sources of information to obtain these facts.

What I would like to know is did the banks unfairly call in markers for Commodore (perhaps influenced by large shareholders dictating policy) despite CD32 selling quite well and A1200 selling quite well?

Is there any place I can get my hands on financial figures for the tax years 1993-1994 and list of creditors/debtors who may have purposefully demanded settlement and thereby preventing further production of machines for sale during 1994?

With all the zionist/illuminati rubbish floating around (which I don't believe in as detailed in those 200 minute snore-fest youtube documentaries) there may be elements of truth into the fact that the guy with the biggest wallet decides who gets screwed and when. Not saying aliens are on the planet, but I am saying that the US courts were unreasonably lenient on all the **** MS pulled and yet two icons were pretty much crucified in the complexity and legal rows following a premature bankruptcy forced upon them.

You can also read up on how CSG/MOS building was handled too, it may be nothing but to me there is the actions of a vindictive kunt element going on here behind it all hmmmmm

[runequester]

With all the zionist/illuminati rubbish floating around (which I don't believe in as detailed in those 200 minute snore-fest youtube documentaries) there may be elements of truth into the fact that the guy with the biggest wallet decides who gets screwed and when. Not saying aliens are on the planet, but I am saying that the US courts were unreasonably lenient on all the **** MS pulled and yet two icons were pretty much crucified in the complexity and legal rows following a premature bankruptcy forced upon them.

I'll refrain from going into crazy commie mode here, but I don't think there's a lot of conspiracy involved in recognizing that the system exists to facilitate the biggest wallet getting bigger. "Competition" is cute as long as it's controllable.

[ChuckT]

I would like to find out the facts and potential sources of information to obtain these facts.

What I would like to know is did the banks unfairly call in markers for Commodore (perhaps influenced by large shareholders dictating policy) despite CD32 selling quite well and A1200 selling quite well?

They were already dictating policy as to what kind of computers the Amiga would be.  In order to borrow money, you have to draw up a business plan and sometimes you have to change your plans to get any kind of money from the banks.

All you have to do is reference old Amigaworld magazines, RUN, Ahoy, Compute or Compute's Gazette to know that Commodore borrowed something like 300 million dollars and their annual payment was something like 25-30 million which they did not meet so the creditors do what creditors do which is reposes.  It was a ridiculous formula to stay afloat to begin with which is why they had three layoffs.  You don't get a mortgage and expect to live in the house very long without paying and 300 million comes with different rules.

[ChuckT]

I imagine this is what they did.

When you buy a company, what you do is exchange shares of stock for a loan and when the company makes loan payments, they buy their shares back.  If the banks had voting shares of Commodore stock, the banks can do whatever they want because they own the company.  If rich people didn't do things this way, there wouldn't be a guarantee that they would get paid.

[jorkany]

despite CD32 selling quite well and A1200 selling quite well?

What country was this in? In 1994 after Commodore went out of business the Amiga shops around central FL dried up faster than spit on a sidewalk in summer and not a single one of them ever carried a CD32 or an A1200 that I saw.

[MiAmigo]

I have often wondered about (and lamented) that question myself.

[desiv]

...after Commodore went out of business the Amiga shops around central FL dried up faster than spit on a sidewalk in summer and not a single one of them ever carried a CD32 or an A1200 that I saw.

No CD32's made it to the U.S. officially.
The XOR patent prohibited that, and it didn't get resolved until way too late.

If that hadn't happened, would sales of the CD32 in the U.S. kept Commodore afloat long enough to do something about the lack of good Doom-clones?
Doubtful I think.
The only real solution would be much faster CPUs (I don't think a new chipset design would have been able to be compatible and done in time), and those were still pretty expensive from Motorolla...

Although, if the CD32 sold well enough to keep Commodore going...
Could an A1400 (which I just made up; basically an A1200 with a 68040 (socketed so it could be upgraded to a faster 040) and at least 2M FAST RAM have held off the PCs for gamers?
A 68040 was plenty good enough for DOOM at the time..

Hmm...

desiv

[runequester]

What country was this in? In 1994 after Commodore went out of business the Amiga shops around central FL dried up faster than spit on a sidewalk in summer and not a single one of them ever carried a CD32 or an A1200 that I saw.

In Deathbed Vigil, Haynie mentions that they were unable to produce enough CD32's to match demand in the UK when it was released.

[dammy]

In Deathbed Vigil, Haynie mentions that they were unable to produce enough CD32's to match demand in the UK when it was released.

I never saw a A1200 in any of the major stores in South Florida in that time period.  A500, A600, but no A1200s.

[runequester]

In Denmark at least they were quite common still. But by then, the amiga was mostly a European phenomenom.

[Ilwrath]

I never saw a A1200 in any of the major stores in South Florida in that time period.  A500, A600, but no A1200s.

Well, around Michigan, no major stores in the US had Commodore / Amiga gear, past 1990, period.  I remember Montgomery Wards and Sears briefly carrying the Amiga 500, but that was over pretty quickly.  

But every single computer shop in SE Michigan that carried any Commodore equipment had the A1200 and CD32 in stock and a display model front and center after they came out.  (Some would also have a single A4000 in stock, but most were on a per-order basis).  And yeah, most shops that carried Commodore gear were on the sharp decline or gone within the year of the bankruptcy.  But they definitely had the gear and were moving it around here before then.

As for the banks forcing Commodore out...  I don't really buy it.  Commodore management had been cooking the books for years prior.  The financial deception was finally called.  The business as it stood didn't terribly matter to the financial facts.

[lassie]

In Denmark at least they were quite common still. But by then, the amiga was mostly a European phenomenom.

The Amiga was very popular here in Denmark

[Digiman]

By the end ie Fall of 93 to April 94 it was clear to everyone that Commodore in Europe alone was a viable business and this is what bugs me.

The A1200 sold well even on first production run in the UK, many people bought it with no AGA software as such to even showcase the machine. At this time a 386DX 33/40mhz would cost about £1000 here and still couldn't play Super Stardust or Lotus II in equivalent quality to be honest. Sure it played Wolfenstein better but that's just one genre and all the crap you had to ensure with loading DOS drivers high and UMB and god knows what other rubbish I've gladly forgotten about putrid MS OS designed by Sinclair ZX81 lovers.

The point was not only was Commodore a viable business (David Pleasance and Colin Proudfoot? wanted to basically win the bid and run it as a European operation as this was more than profitable enough).

If you look at the deals that were done for Warner's Atari to Jack Tramiel and then look at how they ripped Commodore to shreds and made it an incredibly long drawn out procedure that it effectively killed off the wounded company for any would be buyer you have to ask yourself why?

End of the day whilst turning over they were paying their debts slowly, if you shut them down when even only half the company is profitable you're either doing it for a reason or just have zero financial savvy about the world of business.

It makes no sense, it's like someone telling the bank they have just got a job and need a month more to start paying back the backlog and take up payments and then the bank saying no and repossessing the house and making a massive loss on the sale price of property vs loan amount.

So what I want to know is are there legal factual records I can look at somewhere on the web or request records of for disclosure to put a spot light on this ridiculous situation. The magazine facts are not what I want, I need exact figures and copies of contracts and activated clauses used to shut down Commodore. Only then can we get them looked at with a legal eye and get a legal point of view of "this is standard practise for the 90s" or "this is just insane and makes no sense" that's all. Facts are a powerful thing and well sod UFOs for me if there is something covered up about this bankruptcy it has to come out into the public domain

If anyone knows what happened to the MOS/CSG building with all that EPA bollox it only adds fuel to the fire as to how this was like a firestorm operation of military precision to take out every trace of Commodore.

(yeah I know, slim to zero chance of us finding out but hey it's worth asking on a snowball's chance in hell)

[runequester]

Well, part of the problem is that even with the success in Europe, the management was basically leeching the company of money.

[ajlwalker]

What country was this in? In 1994 after Commodore went out of business the Amiga shops around central FL dried up faster than spit on a sidewalk in summer and not a single one of them ever carried a CD32 or an A1200 that I saw.

The UK for one.

In the space of about 3 months, the CD32 went from nowhere to more than 50% of the UK CD-ROM based software market.  I'm sure the charts were regularly shown in the UK Amiga magazines of the time.

I'm fairly certain the CD32 for all its faults actually brought in some money (if you discount the hundreds of thousands manufactured for the North American that never made it out of the Philippine factory).

And not to be pedantic but, digiman was kinda referencing the run up to Commodore going bankrupt, not after.