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Offline TCMSLP

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Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #314 from previous page: October 30, 2012, 01:45:30 PM »
"After 5 years of all this s**t, I simply had enough."

This is exactly how I've felt when battling with Windows in the past.  The random slow downs, the driver issues causing random blue screens, the endless patch updates that always seem to be applied when least convenient (on startup or shutdown), the need to run stacks of anti virus and anti malware software just to browse the internet, the need for third party software to do absolutely *anything* useful, not to mention every windows version I've tried constantly stealing window focus on startup; you start typing in one window, only for another (windowless) background process to start and sneakily steal focus - half of what you typed has vanished.  Repeat this several times during startup and I'll willingly throw the PC out the window.

And you say Linux is broken...

I suspect it's very much a case of being happiest in whatever environment you're most familiar with.    Personally, I'd be very happy if I could ditch Windows 100% - it's only currently Cubase (or rather the cost of Apple hardware) that's delaying this.
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Offline psxphill

Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #315 on: October 30, 2012, 02:01:07 PM »
Quote from: runequester;713148
Since what version does windows support mounting an ISO ? Without downloading an external app like demontools

Windows 8, right click iso & select mount.
 
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;713191
People are ranting against linux in a microsoft thread on an Amiga forum. Obviously there must be some emotion behind these sentiments.

It's just about giving back as good as we got. The first mention of Linux was in an anti-Microsoft post.
I think that is where the really true failure of Linux is, in it's bitter users.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 02:07:04 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline tone007Topic starter

Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #316 on: October 30, 2012, 02:06:21 PM »
Quote from: tone007;713241
I use Linux a lot, mostly on 4+ year old laptops with (by now) fairly well-supported hardware when I think something like Xubuntu would outperform Windows 7.  However, there is the occasional issue of a WiFi chipset not being supported out of the box, usually easily remedied by using something like an "install third-party drivers" option while hooked up to Ethernet (which always seems to work for me.)

However, I've got a newer laptop here with some (probably) less-well supported hardware, Alienware with a hybrid nVidia/Intel video chipset.  I'm going to download one distro (Fedora, probably not the friendliest one to start with) and give it 10 minutes to see if I can get it running well enough to be a daily driver. Lets see what happens.

Fedora 17, 645MB ISO, 20 minutes to download, ~7 minutes to burn to CD, ~10 minutes to install to HD and that's all, everything supported out of the box. Runs nice.



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Offline TheBilgeRat

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Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #317 on: October 30, 2012, 03:17:13 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;713252
W
I think that is where the really true failure of Amiga is, in it's bitter users.


Had to fix that for you :razz:

I find it quite the opposite, actually.  If this thread is any indication, the bitter ones are the ones who never got Linux to work.

You can respond, but I think later today I'll put some of my thoughts down in another thread, where it can get heated and cranky without all the people waiting to know whether they should jump to windows 8 having to read all our drivel.  Well, more of our drivel.
 

Offline runequester

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Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #318 on: October 30, 2012, 03:35:40 PM »
Besides, everyone is going to end up with windows 8 anyways.

The real question is whether anyone will /pay/ for it ;)
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #319 on: October 30, 2012, 04:04:49 PM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;713215
How long do you end up waiting for an Amiga driver to be released?
Zero seconds. All the drivers I've needed have been out for years, and available on Aminet.

Quote from: TCMSLP;713225
Regarding the comments on Gimp - I don't understand any of the  criticisms.  I wasn't a Photoshop user, instead I migrated from Degas  Elite (Atari ST), to Deluxe Paint (Amiga), to Paint Shop Pro (Windows)  to Gimp (Linux).   The path wasn't at all painful and I can still switch  between Gimp and PSP with very little frustration (basic tools, layer  windows etc are all very alike).   Are you sure it's not Photoshop which  breaks the convention? I've heard people say Photoshop has a learning  curve and can be difficult to get started with - I have no personal  experience here.
Photoshop has no real learning curve for basic use, the only complicated things are a few of the secondary tools that aren't immediately self-explanatory (pen tool, for example,) but once you get past that it's not difficult at all. I can't speak for your pre-GIMP experience, but it's not the layout or familiarity that's the problem with it - it's many, many smaller issues that all add up to a lot of hassle:

  • Accelerators in menus and dialogs are an absolute mess - half of them assign the same letter to multiple controls, so that you have to cycle through them, which entirely defeats the point of having them. Tab-stop order is also a nonsensical jumble.
  • As I recall, half the time there weren't even Enter and Esc shortcuts to submit or cancel a dialog.
  • The layout appears to be based on Photoshop for Mac OS, with the menu bar up at the top and palettes floating over the desktop at the sides, but they've overlooked some crucial aspects such as:
  • (Most? All?) Linux desktops don't have a Mac-like global menu bar, so they have to keep the menu confined to the document window - which means it gets added to every document opened, which is a waste of screen space they could've avoided if they'd gone with a Photoshop-for-Windows-style multiple-document interface (I understand they finally added a "single-window mode" which is almost like that, I haven't gotten a chance to try it.)
  • Also, since Alt-Tab on (most?) Linux desktops switches between windows and not applications, having a dozen images open in the GIMP means having to cycle through a dozen image windows to get to, say, a web browser with a reference image, or the MP3 player so you can queue up the next album, or whatever. Another aggravation that could've been avoided if they'd just gone with the design paradigm that suited what most Linux environments are actually like.
  • Furthermore, the document windows get opened wherever, completely irrespective of the application's own windows, so you can quite easily wind up with document windows overlapping (or underlapping) the tool palettes you use to work on them, and have to relocate them manually. That's just braindead. It's not like the GIMP doesn't know where its windows are.
There's a lot of that kind of stuff. It all feels like the symptoms of a project where everybody wants to work on the (admittedly cool) backend functionality, and the part of the program that actually faces the user gets back-burnered until it can't be ignored any longer, then hastily slap-dashed into a basically feature-complete state.

The GIMP is an extreme example, but in my experience that kind of problem seems to be endemic to the Linux developer community - in an open development environment, programmers want to work on the stuff that interests programmers, and without some kind of additional driving force, they really have no interest in boring stuff like usability except in that it gets the program into a state where others can appreciate the cool backend stuff they put all the real work into.

Quote
My surprise at defending Linux on an Amiga forum?  Perhaps I should have  worded that as my surprise people are so pro-Windows on an Amiga forum.    The reason I felt so at home in Linux was due to years of experience  with the Amiga.   Amiga (AmigaDOS?) to Linux (BASH) seemed a natural  progression, certainly a lot more natural than Amiga to Windows.
Well, not all of us are fighting the same old grudge-match from decades ago. I like the Amiga because I find the Amiga to be neat, but I don't have the time or energy to be mad at Windows for beating it, especially when what actually killed it was managerial ineptitude and a few of the bigger scoundrels at Commodore poisoning the well.

Also, huh? AmigaDOS to me looks a lot more like MS-DOS with the design issues fixed than anything like a Unix shell...
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 04:09:06 PM by commodorejohn »
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Offline runequester

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Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #320 on: October 30, 2012, 04:09:21 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;713277
The GIMP is an extreme example, but in my experience that kind of problem seems to be epidemic among the Linux developer community - in an open development environment, programmers want to work on the stuff that interests programmers, and without some kind of additional driving force, they really have no interest in boring stuff like usability except in that it gets the program into a state where others can appreciate the cool backend stuff they put all the real work into.

This is very true. Creating a good program and creating a good user interface are two entirely different skill sets, just like writing a killer book and editing it to be readable is.
To sort of try and bring this back to our beloved amiga's, that's something that was very evident there too. With so much of the software people used being PD stuff, it wasn't uncommon to find some very rudimentary interfaces (or a command line only thing, which is garbage IMO).

For bigger programs (like openoffice or whatnot) it's usually not a big deal, since there's enough people working on it that someone will have the skill set required.

I guess I don't have much experience with GIMP specifically since Deluxe Paint is about as far as I ever made it in drawing tits on my computer. For photo editing I used some app that came with Kubuntu already, and worked decently for chopping down images. Couldn't tell you what it was called though.


edit: Let's not lose track of the fact that photoshop is 700 friggen dollars, if you don't get a discount. People never like to discuss this because /everyone/ I know that uses photoshop pirated that ****, but it's still a factor.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 04:22:27 PM by runequester »
 

Offline runequester

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Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #321 on: October 30, 2012, 04:11:46 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;713252
Windows 8, right click iso & select mount.
 


So the OS that is only just now coming out has the ability you bitch about?

I still maintain that windows is ****, because it can't cook toast, so I'm going to buy a mac instead.
 

Offline TheBilgeRat

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Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #322 on: October 30, 2012, 04:53:57 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;713277

Also, huh? AmigaDOS to me looks a lot more like MS-DOS with the design issues fixed than anything like a Unix shell...


I thought it was bloodline (or Karlos?  I forget) who had a thread here showing a lot of the unix-y goodness in the amiga shell.

Kcon and/or zshell are very unixy.
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #323 on: October 30, 2012, 05:03:33 PM »
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;713288
I thought it was bloodline (or Karlos?  I forget) who had a thread here showing a lot of the unix-y goodness in the amiga shell.
I'd like to see that thread. Still, AmigaDOS tends strongly towards expanded, human-readable command names (copy instead of cp, format instead of mkfs, and so on - also, dir instead of ls, though both are abbreviations there,) has only limited pipe support, has no global directory-tree structure comparable to the Unix / hierarchy, instead addressing individual volumes by appending a colon to either the device name or (thankfully) the volume label, and so on.

Certainly it's not a perfect 1:1 correspondence, it looks more like an expanded RT-11 than either, and I have my suspicions that that's due to TripOS originating on the PDP-11. Still, it certainly looks a lot more like it takes after the side of the CLI family tree that Microsoft also inhabits.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 05:07:06 PM by commodorejohn »
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Offline psxphill

Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #324 on: October 30, 2012, 05:25:52 PM »
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;713264
Had to fix that for you :razz:
 
I find it quite the opposite, actually. If this thread is any indication, the bitter ones are the ones who never got Linux to work.

No, it's the ones that succeeded that seem bitter. The rest of us and just gave in and ran windows.
 
I actually did get Linux to "work", it just doesn't support the hardware I have in my laptops. It's all a bit too unixy for me as well and I've been using unix for a very long time.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 05:28:26 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #325 on: October 30, 2012, 05:30:13 PM »
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;713288
I thought it was bloodline (or Karlos?  I forget) who had a thread here showing a lot of the unix-y goodness in the amiga shell.

Kcon and/or zshell are very unixy.
Actually it was Karlos who posted the old TripOS manual... And it's almost 1:1 with AmigaDOS :)

Offline psxphill

Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #326 on: October 30, 2012, 07:35:43 PM »
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;713288
I thought it was bloodline (or Karlos? I forget) who had a thread here showing a lot of the unix-y goodness in the amiga shell.
 
Kcon and/or zshell are very unixy.

So is Cygwin on windows. AmigaOS isn't very unixy.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #327 on: October 30, 2012, 07:45:17 PM »
Quote from: runequester;713271
besides, everyone is going to end up with windows 8 anyways.

never.
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Offline haywirepc

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Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #328 on: October 30, 2012, 08:28:04 PM »
I'll never use 8. I'll use xp and 7 for anything I actually need windows for. If it comes with any pc I buy, I suppose I can downgrade or just hack it to get rid of the horrid parts. My bet is they separate that horrid metro interface in the next release, but we'll see.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
« Reply #329 on: October 30, 2012, 08:32:24 PM »
Quote from: haywirepc;713318
I'll never use 8. I'll use xp and 7 for anything I actually need windows for. If it comes with any pc I buy, I suppose I can downgrade or just hack it to get rid of the horrid parts. My bet is they separate that horrid metro interface in the next release, but we'll see.


With you on this one Steven. Metro is awful.
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