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AuthorTopic: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64  (Read 7790 times)

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Offline omnicron10

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2012, 07:02:35 AM »
Quote from: Motormouth;692696
You never know with COP maybe we will get c65 emulation (I don't really know enough about the c65) out the Chameleon 64?

Would be cool but it would not be via COP.

Jens is not interested in making emulation for really non-existance computer. There was even a question on how much to expand the C64 that would make it essentially a unique computer that never was.

With the power of the FPGA, a computer could be created that is a lot more powerful the c64 or most Amigas!

For a C65 you need to make a VIC III, DMAGIC and the CSG4510 CPU that has two of the 6526 CIAs in it in FPGA.  The CPU and CIAs are kinda portable from the existing FPGA cores but the VIC III and DMAGIC would have to be reversed engineered. Some of the VIC II stuff would be ported over to the VIC III but not enough is know between these two chips and enough software for the VIC III to ever know if it was recreated 100%.

If you created the VIC II 100% from spec sheets, most of the really amazing C64 software would not work!  It can do so much more than the spec sheets have listed.

I think the logical expansion of Chameleon with COP is a good idea.  It could even support multimonitor.  VIC II on the C64 and COP output on the other.  You might even do overlay with COP doing background and the C64 sprites and other items on the screen or visa versa.  Things like that could run on normal C64s and then have an enhanced mode for the Chameleon.
A500/030 40mhz with A530, Indivision ECS, , KS 3.1, 2 Megs Chip, 8 Megs fast.
A600 Vampire II
SAM440EP 667, Amiga OS 4.1u1
Dual G4 1.2 Mac MorphOS
Chameleon
CD32
SX64
128D
128
C64
64C
 

Offline psxphill

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2012, 09:34:58 AM »
Quote from: omnicron10;692610
Gideon has released the code that runs on the 1541u2 but not the FPGA source.

That is not true. The 1541u2 documentation includes how to install the xilinx tool chain and build everything. http://www.1541ultimate.net/content/doc/1541U2Doc_v0.3.pdf
 
If I had the time to learn about fpgas then I would.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2012, 09:39:58 AM »
Quote from: Motormouth;692696
@Omnicron You make a point about SuperCPU and the need of an internal board. I don't know as much about the c128 hardware architecture as I do about the different amigas out there. But I would guess that the 1 to 2 mhz switching on 8502 and the subsequent Z80 switch for CPM would make a CPU accelerator tricky without an internal board.

The internal board the supercpu needs for a c128 is for the MMU, because the cartridge slot just gets the 64k view of memory.
 
However the chameleon isn't compatible with the c128 at all because of the way it does the vga output. It doesn't have to be this way, it could be made to work. They just don't want to.
 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/chameleon_64/message/126
 
The PLA problem Jens talks about is because of how they achieve dual head output (VGA+VIC), you could work round this by only supporting VGA output. At which point you don't need to write to main memory at all, so the MMU problem goes out the window. 80 column output would still work, just no VIC.
 
If you want a real c128 to go faster in c128 mode, then your only option is a supercpu v2 with an mmu adapter. Expensive, but it'll work.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 09:53:44 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline omnicron10

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2012, 04:15:15 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;692715
That is not true. The 1541u2 documentation includes how to install the xilinx tool chain and build everything. http://www.1541ultimate.net/content/doc/1541U2Doc_v0.3.pdf
 
If I had the time to learn about fpgas then I would.


At one point he did not release the VHDL.  I will have to see if it actually have the VHDL source.  That would be interesting.
A500/030 40mhz with A530, Indivision ECS, , KS 3.1, 2 Megs Chip, 8 Megs fast.
A600 Vampire II
SAM440EP 667, Amiga OS 4.1u1
Dual G4 1.2 Mac MorphOS
Chameleon
CD32
SX64
128D
128
C64
64C
 

Offline omnicron10

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2012, 04:42:51 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;692716
The internal board the supercpu needs for a c128 is for the MMU, because the cartridge slot just gets the 64k view of memory.
 
However the chameleon isn't compatible with the c128 at all because of the way it does the vga output. It doesn't have to be this way, it could be made to work. They just don't want to.
 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/chameleon_64/message/126
 
The PLA problem Jens talks about is because of how they achieve dual head output (VGA+VIC), you could work round this by only supporting VGA output. At which point you don't need to write to main memory at all, so the MMU problem goes out the window. 80 column output would still work, just no VIC.
 
If you want a real c128 to go faster in c128 mode, then your only option is a supercpu v2 with an mmu adapter. Expensive, but it'll work.


The chameleon started life as a VGA output and FLOPPY replacement.

The C128 does not support the VGA VICII mirroring feature in C64 mode or C128 as you pointed out.  

Could they make a non VGA version?  Sure but that was not the point of the Chameleon.  Since the Chameleon is a commercial product and they have to make money as well, I think resources are better served get the current core as good as possible vs making a c128 version of it.

They have released enough information that if you wanted to make a C128 accelerator you can write your own FPGA for it.  

The C128 also have a lot of cart port timing differences compared to most C64s.
A500/030 40mhz with A530, Indivision ECS, , KS 3.1, 2 Megs Chip, 8 Megs fast.
A600 Vampire II
SAM440EP 667, Amiga OS 4.1u1
Dual G4 1.2 Mac MorphOS
Chameleon
CD32
SX64
128D
128
C64
64C
 

Offline psxphill

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2012, 05:35:06 PM »
Quote from: omnicron10;692755
Could they make a non VGA version? Sure but that was not the point of the Chameleon.

My suggestion was the opposite, keep the VGA and ignore the VIC. The Chameleon already supports generating VGA output without VIC, so the amount of work would not be huge.
 
I've already got a 1541u2, so I'm not going to buy a chamelon so I can add c128 support. I doubt the OP will either, who clearly wants a chameleon but can't because he wants to use it with c128 software.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 05:45:11 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline omnicron10

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2012, 05:53:58 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;692759
My suffestion was the opposite, keep the VGA and ignore the VIC. The Chameleon already supports generating VGA output without VIC, so the amount of work would not be huge.


So you are saying output the VIC display on the Chameleon non-synced with the internal c128 display?  The C128 would be not more than a keyboard I guess.

I am not sure that would work. The "magic" that allows the Chameleon to know what the VIC sees does not seem to work on the C128 so how would the Chameleon display the VIC output?  It is almost like to computers that are synced to each other and the Chameleon is a slave to the master.  The Chameleon has also taken over or duplicated large aspects of the CIAs and MEMORY.  The method in which it has done that I think also precludes things like IEC emulation without a cable unlike the 1541U2.

Just my understanding of how it works.  I have tried to follow it closely.
A500/030 40mhz with A530, Indivision ECS, , KS 3.1, 2 Megs Chip, 8 Megs fast.
A600 Vampire II
SAM440EP 667, Amiga OS 4.1u1
Dual G4 1.2 Mac MorphOS
Chameleon
CD32
SX64
128D
128
C64
64C
 

Offline Motormouth

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2012, 06:24:41 PM »
Thanks all,

I have learned quite a bit from this thread!
 

Offline omnicron10

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2012, 06:41:20 PM »
Quote from: Motormouth;692941
Thanks all,

I have learned quite a bit from this thread!


GOOD!

I like both products.  The 1541 U2 is a great device and does what it is suppose to do with out much fault.  Reasonable updates and feedback seem to the norm as well.

The Chameleon is incredible.  Can be very complicated and is not 100% in the CPU emulation yet but VERY useable.  Depending on what you do with your C64, you might not have any problems with it.  Being able to run PAL in standalone here in NTSC land is very cool.  Future updates should make it even a better device.  C128 support is nice too.

Biggest issue for the 1541 U2 is the time it takes to get one.  It can be 6+ months.

Biggest issue for the Chameleon is the complexity and the semi-beta status of the device.  It can be so many different hardware configurations that you can make settings that don't work.  The documentation is orientated toward a very knowledgeable C64 owner and or programer.  BTW, if you are a C64 programer, they almost all the features of the Chameleon accessible is a very well documented and powerful fashion.

I have heard that the stock of the Chameleon is running low.  I believe a new run will be made but it might take a while.
A500/030 40mhz with A530, Indivision ECS, , KS 3.1, 2 Megs Chip, 8 Megs fast.
A600 Vampire II
SAM440EP 667, Amiga OS 4.1u1
Dual G4 1.2 Mac MorphOS
Chameleon
CD32
SX64
128D
128
C64
64C
 

Offline Motormouth

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2012, 10:38:29 PM »
You have talked me into it.  I am going to get the chameleon 64!!!
 

Offline omnicron10

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2012, 11:14:17 PM »
Looks like the Chameleon is out of stock... sad face...

In the latest firmware there is a documentation   folder now that has a pretty good user manual.  Not bad.

http://beta.icomp.de/bin/Chameleon_Beta-7a.zip
A500/030 40mhz with A530, Indivision ECS, , KS 3.1, 2 Megs Chip, 8 Megs fast.
A600 Vampire II
SAM440EP 667, Amiga OS 4.1u1
Dual G4 1.2 Mac MorphOS
Chameleon
CD32
SX64
128D
128
C64
64C
 

Offline Motormouth

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2012, 12:09:44 AM »
Quote from: omnicron10;693198
Looks like the Chameleon is out of stock... sad face...



Darn :(

Well, it looks like amigakit says it is:    
Stock Expected: (overdue)

This is better than out of stock or T. B. A.
 

Offline Motormouth

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2012, 01:44:08 AM »
One last quick question.

How does one get Minimg core on the Chameleon without a Minimg?
I see there is a Minmig to Chameleon 64 cable that connects through the docking station.

Is this necessary?
 

Offline broken

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2012, 01:48:57 AM »
I thought you just popped the file on the SD card.
 

Offline omnicron10

Re: 1541 Ultimate II vs. chameleon 64
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2012, 02:05:46 AM »
You use the USB cable and the installer that runs from Linux, MAC and PC.

If you install it to SLOT 0 it will start to Minimig core. If you install it in another slot, you select it in the Chameleon interface.

The Minimig docking station cable is to use the Docking station ONLY with the minimig as an expansion and has nothing to do with the Chameleon and the docking station.
A500/030 40mhz with A530, Indivision ECS, , KS 3.1, 2 Megs Chip, 8 Megs fast.
A600 Vampire II
SAM440EP 667, Amiga OS 4.1u1
Dual G4 1.2 Mac MorphOS
Chameleon
CD32
SX64
128D
128
C64
64C