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Author Topic: So PowerPC is dead you say?  (Read 14506 times)

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Offline DigimanTopic starter

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #59 from previous page: April 18, 2012, 08:39:46 PM »
Quote from: AJCopland;689337
If they are abandoning the PPC/Cell combo, and I'd bet they are, it's because their partners pulled out of Cell development. So they're faced with either:
1) paying for a new CPU to be developed,
2) paying for further development of the Cell and marrying it to either a newer PPC core or another ISA,
3) or they can take an off the shelf CPU/Mobo/GPU and come within a few percentage either side of their competitors whilst saving a HUGE (billions dollars) amount of money.

I think they've chosen route #3 because finally someone slightly less insane is at the helm at Sony.

Nothing to do with ease/difficulty of Cell software development or anything either, I think it's purely a logical choice based on monetary needs.

Andy

Trouble is if Xenon and CELL CPUsaren't used in their future replacements then backwards compatibility will costly via 100% software emulation of PS3 and Xbox360.

For the record Power7 is massively capable but priced as a high end server CPU. As others have said IBM sold the consumer computer division to Lenovo.

It was all tongue in cheek. If you really do want a fast 3.2ghz PPC CPU get IBM to sell you a batch of Xenon CPUs :crazy:
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2012, 08:45:18 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;689404
Hey, Nostradamus, while you're declaring the course of the future with absolute certainty, would you mind handing out some stock tips?

:D


Quote from: commodorejohn;689404
... why is it that, say, MorphOS Team couldn't use the Wii U as a target platform, if they were so inclined?

Because they won't port to a hacked console. Legal reasons.
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Offline Iggy

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2012, 08:47:09 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;689409
If you really do want a fast 3.2ghz PPC CPU get IBM to sell you a batch of Xenon CPUs :crazy:

Microsoft, as they own the rights.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline DigimanTopic starter

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2012, 08:53:41 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;689407
But yes, by all means, please go ahead and approach IBM with a request to buy that CPU that will be custom built exclusively for Nintendo, for use in a new desktop Amiga motherboard. Or the custom made PPC chip they did for the Microsoft's Xbox 360. Then please report back here what their response was. I think I know what the answer will be (most likely a two letter word beginning with N and ending with O, followed by several other two-letter words in a row, each beginning with H and ending with A).

Then build your custom design desktop motherboard using it. If you start now, and put in half a million in cash, you might have a product ready in three years or so (read: yet another computer generation has passed). After that, maybe Amigakit can collect pre-orders here on amiga.org, so you can start producing it in batches of 50 units. Heck, chances are that even the A1X1K will be competitive in price.

Is this really your view of a viable, sustainable future for the platform? If "no", then why are we discussing console CPU's as if they had any relevance for Amiga's future?


1. IBM are 100% at liberty to sell Xenon. Why? Because Sony were furious and had IBM not made it available and 100% independent of Microsoft's Xbox they would have ended up either paying billions in court to Sony or Microsoft paying Sony commission on Xbox360s sold. If you have the cash IBM can use it within a project of your choosing.

2. Your average Computer Science PHd student could design a motherboard for off the shelf DRAM/Xenon/GPU as a single year project. A woman invented the ARM cpu and students designed the Amstrad and BBC Micros you do know that yes? Difficult for us but not impossible for a talented post graduate. We are talking replicating known published Xbox360 motherboard schematics.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2012, 08:55:45 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;689409
Trouble is if Xenon and CELL CPUsaren't used in their future replacements then backwards compatibility will costly via 100% software emulation of PS3 and Xbox360.

Hahahahahhaahahahah! :roflmao: PS3 and Xbox360 are stone age compared to even mid range computers now... Software emulation won't be an issue :)

-edit- Hell, we can even do full 30fps H.264 decoding in JavaScript on a web browser now... Something unthinkable 6 years ago!! :)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 08:58:15 PM by bloodline »
 

Offline DigimanTopic starter

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2012, 09:04:12 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;689411
Microsoft, as they own the rights.


This is an urban legend, because Xenon is basically a modified main core from Cell (which was co-funded by Toshiba and Sony) IBM designed a suitable CPU using research funded by Sony/Toshiba which following legal threats IBM have to sell per unit to Microsoft as a customer and Xenon made an inventory item.

This is confirmed years ago by both a 360 games company and a PS3 development studio.
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2012, 09:13:37 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;689410
Because they won't port to a hacked console. Legal reasons.
Fair point. Still, it's not like AROS couldn't.
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Offline DigimanTopic starter

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2012, 09:16:00 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;689415
Hahahahahhaahahahah! :roflmao: PS3 and Xbox360 are stone age compared to even mid range computers now... Software emulation won't be an issue :)

-edit- Hell, we can even do full 30fps H.264 decoding in JavaScript on a web browser now... Something unthinkable 6 years ago!! :)


1. every shared memory graphics type laptop (ie under £1000) can't play a single Directx 9c game like Battlefield 2 half a decade ago and just crashes out, and your average PC World £400 tower barely does Crysis in XGA @ 15fps.

2. You may be able to decode 1080p video using Intel I3 2100k for peanuts BUT people buy £150-200 consoles to play 1080p GAMES at 30-60FPS ;)

3. Emulating a 3.2GHZ CELL CPU / Xenon CPU via an i7 or Phenom II @ 3.4GHZ is NEVER going to happen for the same reason the starscream 68k emulator is not 1:1mhz on emulated:host CPU performance :)
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2012, 09:29:57 PM »
@Digiman

1.Nonsense. My core i7-2600k + gf 570 gtx system cost me well under 400 pounds and I get well over double that at 1080p/high detail. Also something like an AMD e-350/E-450 is more than capable of dealing with a lot of DX9.x games.
2. Very, very few console games run at 1080p. As many as not dont even run in 720p
3. A 3.4ghz Phenom2 is much, much faster than either Cell or Xenon, so 1:1 emulation speed isnt required.
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2012, 09:32:33 PM »
Quote from: billt;689406
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;689393
No it won't happen. I'm *not* saying it's technically impossible to develop a motherboard using obscure PPC CPU's (Aeon and Acube are examples of that), but the key word here is *VIABLE*, and this is where it *fails*, as again both Aeon and Acube are both examples of.


OK, so it's not dead because it's incapable


Of course it's *technically possible* to make a desktop motherboard based on obscure PPC CPU's (it can't compete with any *real* desktop motherboard though).

But open your eyes for a moment, and think about this for a few seconds: Why do you think nobody is *doing* this? Why is there no desktop market based on PPC? Why hasn't it been any for the last half decade?

Quote
it's dead because they don't sell more than some number in your head.


Oh, please...

Quote
I don't know how many either company has sold, or if they've broken even.


I'd say a few hundred units, and I recall from somewhere that the threshold for Acube to make a production batch is about 30 units, so it's an extremely low volume scheme.

Quote
Since Acube has more than one model, I feel it safe to assume that they felt successful enough to do more than the first model.


Performance wise, my $129 Efika MX kicks Sam 440's butt. And the Sam 460 doesn't quite reach up to a 2004 Pegasos 2. And it costs over *a thousand* Euros! The obscure hardware components has meant quite a dire driver situation. More than a year has passed, and they still haven't got some of the fundamental, rudimentary things working properly! The A1X1K doesn't offer much on top of a souped-up $100 PowerMac G4, and apparently it can't play 1080p video sufficiently even on a dual core enabled Linux with all drivers working. And it costs over *three thousand dollars*, all handled through pre-order schemes!

How is this good? How is it even *decent*? How is this viable? How is it a way to a sustainable future?

Quote
It's too bad that none of our Amiga-alike platforms can be a viable thing to you. It's sad that MorphOS is such a failure to be on such old Mac laptops instead of shiny new ones, or on shiny new anything that I know of. And sad that AROS is not viable because it runs on shiny new PCs. And sad that OS4 is not viable because they seem to have a successful business selling brand new but weird boards.


Now don't be cranky just because someone opens the window for a minute to let in some fresh reality from outside.

At least AROS isn't tied to a dead-end CPU architecture.

At least MorphOS developers aren't mentally tied to PPC in any way, in fact, I don't think any single one of them looks at PPC as a path to a viable future, rather the opposite actually, and eventually this will show.

The only ones thinking the OS4 model (obscure, custom made, low performance, low volume, ridiculously priced PPC HW) is the way forward, is the OS4 OS/HW developers. Which is fine by me.
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2012, 09:38:29 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;689428
Of course it's *technically possible* to make a desktop motherboard based on obscure PPC CPU's (it can't compete with any *real* desktop motherboard though).
Why is that? Are "real" desktop boards magic? Have Asus, Dell, et al made a pact with the Old Gods?
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2012, 09:47:21 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;689413
1. IBM are 100% at liberty to sell Xenon. Why? Because Sony were furious and had IBM not made it available and 100% independent of Microsoft's Xbox they would have ended up either paying billions in court to Sony or Microsoft paying Sony commission on Xbox360s sold. If you have the cash IBM can use it within a project of your choosing.

2. Your average Computer Science PHd student could design a motherboard for off the shelf DRAM/Xenon/GPU as a single year project. A woman invented the ARM cpu and students designed the Amstrad and BBC Micros you do know that yes? Difficult for us but not impossible for a talented post graduate. We are talking replicating known published Xbox360 motherboard schematics.


OK Digiman, you surely proved me wrong there! Well, now that I know better, I must admit that it turns out that PPC *is* a viable way for a sustainable future of desktop computers. With this in mind, I must say that OS4 needs to remain PPC. Forever.

I apologize for the distraction! Now, let's get back to this interesting discussion: Which one of the eighth generation console CPU's do you think should be used in the AmigaOne X2000? The Power 7 based CPU from Wii U? Or the 16 core Xbox 720? 2012 will be The Year of Amiga, and so will all the coming years as well!

:pint:
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline billt

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2012, 09:54:15 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;689428
Now don't be cranky just because someone opens the window for a minute to let in some fresh reality from outside.


You mean my $99 Efika is an unviable failure?! Bwaaaaahaaahahahaahaaaaa!

I'd love to see OS4 move away from PPC. That would make it so much easier to get a laptop to run it on. Until then, I continue with my lofty goal to design something for myself.
Bill T
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 

Offline bbond007

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2012, 11:06:14 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;689400
it won't change the fact that nobody will ever be building a viable desktop motherboard usable by OS4 ever again! This is why it's **DEAD** for all purposes of interest to Amiga users!

That is a bold statement.

Lets see, from the time of the commodore demise, we have seen the AmigaOne, Pesesos, a bunch of SAMS, and now finally the X1000. (I never bought any of them, because they cost associated with them in my opinion is just too much money for the luxury of running OS4.X... but that's not the point...)

So, you are seriously saying the x1000 is the LAST OS4 compatible PPC motherboard that will ever be produced? I did not think the x1000 was ever going to be produced, but here it is, all 3000 dollars of it :)

On a completely different front, we the complete recreation of the Amiga chipset in the fpgarcade and the 68060 expansion board is in prototype stage from my understanding.

Are you saying that they (the people behind the fpgarcade) will NEVER make an expansion board that has a PPC processor in addition to or in place of the 68060? It would then be a PPC motherboard running OS4 classic, right?

How about this. If a new OS4 compatible motherboard is produced, and assuming you have two working kidneys at that time, why not make a commitment to donate one (to somebody on a waiting list) in honor of Jay Miner?

Sounds like you have nothing to worry about...
 

Offline bbond007

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2012, 11:16:39 PM »
Quote from: billt;689433
You mean my $99 Efika is an unviable failure?

if its the same Efika i resold for $1, then yeah, i do kind of think it was a failure...
 

Offline bbond007

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Re: So PowerPC is dead you say?
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2012, 11:24:23 PM »
Quote from: Manu;689268
It's just a little bit too big for my living room, I'll pass on this new PPC technology and happily continue use my Intel Core2Duo

http://www.characterblog.com/assets/58914-ibm-watson.jpg


Admit it, you asked but the wife would not allow it, right?