CommodoreUSA CEO Interview Answers

[Darrin]

Damn you are a nasty person so no, that is not correct.

Actually I'm a very nice person.  Ask anybody who has met me.  Probably because I'm an honest person and honesty is something you appear to know very little about.

So, what YOU said and what I interpreted from it is absolutely correct.

[Darrin]

I agree....all this bickering is stupid, but maybe necessary so we can see/discuss how things are/could work out.

You know how.  Stop the lies and just bugger off and sell you Linux PCs without the Amiga logo.

[Darrin]

Also there's one last thing I must correct you here about CUSA and that is, Barry DOES ship different power PSUs for the different required specs. He has acknowledged this was a mistake with the specs page they published as he has confirmed here, so you/others who have ordered the Amiga Mini have nothing to worry about.... > http://www.commodore-amiga.org/en/forum/27-commodore-usa/14400-any-news-to-share?limit=15&start=15#14511

So someone who has the reputation for telling "porkies" has told you that he sells different PSUs for different configurations and we shouldn't worry about it.

Wow, I just get that warm fuzzy feeling all over.

[Darrin]

There were over 6 million Commodore 8 bit and Amiga users/households world wide while Commodore was alive. There were 250,000 c64DTV solds. I think worldwide, 10,000 is reasonable.

Most bought it because they can have a computer that does real co,puter work to contemporary computing needs not 30 years and not half-ass. You got WYSIWYG with 16 million color word programs. What is printed is usually close to what you see. Mostly ink to light differences. In any case, you can do real stuff but most of those may have bought it for having a modern pc in a c64 style case with a good flavor of Linux with real computing and programming capability BUT you don't have to program Linux to use it. They have user interfaces like every other major OS like windows and mac osx. It is also produced by respectively legitimate licensee of the trademark and brand.

This is the same sales pitch Bazza gave us when he first appeared.  What the real Commodore managed to do with tehir resources is not an indication of what C-USA could do or are even capable of doing.

Stop trying to take another company's success story and stable it to C-USA.

C-USA is simply an LLC start-up who have bought the rights to borrow the name (along with anybody else who also wants to buy the name).  In reality they are "Joe Bloggs who resells computers he buys cheap off teh interenet for a higher price".  They're just one step above an eBay store.

[WotTheFook]

Christ on a bike.... this is like having a bird's eye view of Hitler's bunker in 1944, with everyone ranting and raving and moving imaginary armies around without realising than the war is lost and that the Russians are about to kick the door in.

You are all arguing tiny points of anal detail about how, where, when and what he did wrong without realising that Commodore USA has completely and utterly missed the point by a country mile. Analysing every bit of propaganda back and forth won't get you away from an inescapable truth; Barry couldn't sell water to a man on fire and still insists on trying to sell freezers to Eskimoes.

Most of us already have an uber PC that wipes the floor with anything he has cobbled together thus far, but Barry's market isn't necessarily us, is it? If he had his head nailed on properly, he would be trying to make a simple programmable PC for about the price of a Nintendo DS, in order to try and interest our kids in something other than games.

Schools are also starting to talk about teaching proper computing again and this is what could create his new market, if could see the wood for the bloody trees in the way. If our kids start wanting to learn programming, that could be a potentially big market and we could all get to take our kids along on a similar journey that we all took to get where we are today.

By the way, Barry, this is the concept behind the Raspberry Pi, so if you are thinking of nicking it for your own use, make sure you do it properly, as your competitor already has a lead on you.

[Darrin]

Every one of those first 10,000 were sold because they had to get a second batch. The $6-8 million figure accounts for also sales of the other products as well. CommodoreUSA got a lot more media attention and public awareness and ultimately purchases then every current hardware developer in the Commodore and classic Amiga community has ever been able to muster.

Thank you for this pearl.

First you state you have no connection to C-USA.  Then you admit you met Barry and now you try and tell us that you have detailed information regarding their sales.

So, are you lying that you have a business (or soon to be) business connection with C-USA?

Are you lying when you say you are certain they sold all 10,000 units (unlike teh 100,000 figure they had thrown around)?

Let me give you the benefit of the doubt here.  I think you're lying on both account.  I believe you are hoping to open a Commodore franchise and I believe you have no proof whatsoever that 10,000 C64x computers were sold.

In short, you, Middleman and Dammy are here under orders to try and do some damage repair and you're urinating into the wind.

Still, at least you're entertaining.  Every post you guys make just opens up more and more holes in the C-USA sage of lies.  Keep it up.  Everything you say will be taken down and used in evidence against you.  

[Darrin]

You are all arguing tiny points of anal detail about how, where, when and what he did wrong without realising that Commodore USA has completely and utterly missed the point by a country mile. Analysing every bit of propaganda back and forth won't get you away from an inescapable truth; Barry couldn't sell water to a man on fire and still insists on trying to sell freezers to Eskimoes.

LOL.  A brilliant summary.  

[Darrin]

Oh, and I should point out that while I'm certain that C-USA is currently a money-pit and the losses are substantial, Barry is absorbing a lot of this ebcause he can write-off the LLC loses against his overall taxes for the year.

The problem you face is that year one is over and now we're in year two.  IIRC you can only write off your company losses for 2 years and then they're your problem (I'm not sure of the exact period because I've only ever owned 2 comapnies and neither of them has ever made a loss).

The clock is ticking to CONvince people to invest, before it has to be shut down.

[WotTheFook]

If there's this much arguing about how many units sold and how much money went where and on what, I bet the IRS are going to need Stephen Hawking to explain Barry's accounts to them....

[commodorejohn]

Every one of those first 10,000 were sold because they had to get a second batch. The $6-8 million figure accounts for also sales of the other products as well. CommodoreUSA got a lot more media attention and public awareness and ultimately purchases then every current hardware developer in the Commodore and classic Amiga community has ever been able to muster.

Do you have a source for this? Every time I've asked about sales figures, they've declined to respond, and they certainly haven't announced anything about a second run here.

There was 250,000 C64DTVs in sold in the first batch. So, giving a reference of price difference of the DTV being 1/20th that of the initial price of the C64x. It would be reasonable that something at 20x the price is going to sell at about 1/20th the quantity.

They're entirely different markets, produced and sold in entirely different ways by entirely different companies. There is absolutely no correlation between the two. Do you have a source for any of this, or is this more making up of stuff?

If 10,000 units sold, you are talking $5,950,000 in gross revenue income. I didn't say profit. So, $6 million is a fair minimal. Lets add to that factor the other products ordered.

I'm not quibbling about the math - I'm still stuck on that "if 10,000 units are sold" bit. Have 10,000 units been sold? Where did you get that information?

There were over 6 million Commodore 8 bit and Amiga users/households world wide while Commodore was alive. There were 250,000 c64DTV solds. I think worldwide, 10,000 is reasonable.

Whether you think it's reasonable is entirely irrelevant to the question of what actually happened in the real world, sales-wise, in the past year. Do you have any insight on that question that the rest of us don't? Unfounded guesswork is not a convincing argument.

[Darrin]

If there's this much arguing about how many units sold and how much money went where and on what, I bet the IRS are going to need Stephen Hawking to explain Barry's accounts to them....

LOL.  Christ, I bet an audit of the accounts would tie up the entire IRS for years.

[Darrin]

Whether you think it's reasonable is entirely irrelevant to the question of what actually happened in the real world, sales-wise, in the past year. Do you have any insight on that question that the rest of us don't? Unfounded guesswork is not a convincing argument.

and don't forget those C64 joysticks were sold on QVC and were extremely cheap.  I know because I bought one off QVC at the time, used it a couple of times, gave it to my kids who then threw it in the closet once the batteries ran out and went back to their Windows PCs, PS3 and Wii.  

Let us also look at the C-USA expenses.

The Tron advertising must have cost around $20,000.  Their "business center" (tiny shop in a mall) must run them $1500 a day, their employees are at least on minimum wage (so 1 guy at $10 and hour), the C64x design, protoypes and production run couldn't have been cheap.  So, take what few sales they managed and deduct their costs and you end up with a figure that probably rivals the economy of Greece.

[Wildstar128]

Millions in sales? Time for fairy tales again? In the future each machine will be delivered by Unicorn?

http://hol.abime.net/399/boxscan

Millions isn't alot and is easily doable. First, Barry isn't someone with no money connections and financing. You think Barry is completely financed this out of dollars in his wallet? No. It is business venturing and numerous financial arrangements.

Barry knows how to run businesses and isn't someone who has never ran a business. He may not be the brightest individual in the world but experience and knowledge goes hand in hand. The other business like anything is equity to start up CommodoreUSA. Lets put it mildly, it is business and as such he is not going to run it like anything other than a business. Whatever issues or supporting of Commodore and Amiga classic has to be isolated from running down the revenues and incurring liability on the CommodoreUSA business end.

Otherwise, blowing $150k on making a bunch of boards for which only 50 on the planet will ever buy isn't going to be prudent. Investing $2k-3k.... Maybe but there is no paying for labor. So, $1k in labor maybe for $129-159 price. This way, you can reinvest and have profit and pay for time.

That is why the price doubling the cost is the strategy. You must nave a profit margin but bring cost down so the price is competitive.

If one is going to have real R&D then for one guy doing the job, we are talking $50k-100k for 20-40 hours a week  to bring a product to market. Do yourself a favor and look up what hardware engineers make at major companies for their time. An honest company would endeavor to pay their staff and contracted developers reasonable amount competitive to anyone else. We are talking $55k to $100k. If you got a $1 million is staffing expenses and 2-3 million in other expenses of operation. You need to make $5-6 million to break even to also address taxes. At this scale, we are talking to be viable - $10 Million revenue is a necessary for on-going operation and growth and that needs to increase at least 5% to stay up on the leading edge of inflation.

$10 Million may sound like a lot but that is still small.

$10 Billion is when you are up there with the big league.

[WotTheFook]

Barry knows how to run businesses and isn't someone who has never ran a business. He may not be the brightest individual in the world but experience and knowledge goes hand in hand.

Thanks Captain Obvious; I think most of us have already worked out that Barry probably knows a friend who has run a business but has never ran a business himself, from evidence seen thus far.

Experience and knowledge? In what, exactly? 'Photoshopping for Dummies', 'Plagarism Made Simple' and 'How To Use Ctrl-C And Ctrl-V For Fun and Profit' doesn't count as Marketing by any stretch of the imagination. I doubt that Barry could market condoms in a brothel properly.

The only bit of that statement you made that I actually believe is that Barry isn't the sharpest tool in the box. He's a chancer, a bull****ter who blows sunshine up people's arses so that they part with money. As for a business plan, there isn't one, we can all see that.

Barry needs to read the tale of The Emperor's New Clothes....

[Darrin]

Millions isn't alot and is easily doable. First, Barry isn't someone with no money connections and financing. You think Barry is completely financed this out of dollars in his wallet? No. It is business venturing and numerous financial arrangements.

Barry knows how to run businesses and isn't someone who has never ran a business. He may not be the brightest individual in the world but experience and knowledge goes hand in hand. The other business like anything is equity to start up CommodoreUSA. Lets put it mildly, it is business and as such he is not going to run it like anything other than a business. Whatever issues or supporting of Commodore and Amiga classic has to be isolated from running down the revenues and incurring liability on the CommodoreUSA business end.

Otherwise, blowing $150k on making a bunch of boards for which only 50 on the planet will ever buy isn't going to be prudent. Investing $2k-3k.... Maybe but there is no paying for labor. So, $1k in labor maybe for $129-159 price. This way, you can reinvest and have profit and pay for time.

That is why the price doubling the cost is the strategy. You must nave a profit margin but bring cost down so the price is competitive.

If one is going to have real R&D then for one guy doing the job, we are talking $50k-100k for 20-40 hours a week  to bring a product to market. Do yourself a favor and look up what hardware engineers make at major companies for their time. An honest company would endeavor to pay their staff and contracted developers reasonable amount competitive to anyone else. We are talking $55k to $100k. If you got a $1 million is staffing expenses and 2-3 million in other expenses of operation. You need to make $5-6 million to break even to also address taxes. At this scale, we are talking to be viable - $10 Million revenue is a necessary for on-going operation and growth and that needs to increase at least 5% to stay up on the leading edge of inflation.

$10 Million may sound like a lot but that is still small.

$10 Billion is when you are up there with the big league.

You must be wearing thigh-high rubber boots to be wading through that much BS.

Want to names some of these "business arrangements" so we can call them and check?  Thought not.

Remember, here's the pic that was "supposed" top be C64X mobos:

[Digiman]

1) I think Barry has given a fair and balanced interview. He is being pretty honest here IMHO and is hiding nothing here save any legal trade agreements they have with their business partners AFAIK….

He failed to answer some key questions, and his rebuke in each case was childish and unprofessional but evasive in those instances.

2) He is being realistic about the market situation and for the company in general - that for a reborn Commodore to survive, it has to make products that are relevant to the market and on-par tech wise with the best that is out there. Being Linux and Windows-compatible is one way to secure that future (or at least the funds for that future). Though not agreeing with 'legacy Amiga purists' going the x86 route now is the most logically sound route for the company at present.

We stated the bare minimum was for something akin to the effort put into C64x. A freely engraved case purchased from Wesena China is not remotely anything Amiga related and the i7 based motherboard is AROS incompatible.

Commodore OS is a complete joke. Linux and ugly skin is nothing to do with any Amiga OS. If it can't run Amiga source code natively with zero emulation as Amithlon or AROS do on x86 hardware is certainly isn't anything remotely related to the Amiga.

3) Had made some points which are very logical from a business perspective (which again may upset some Amiga fans here) but is the truth. Computers have come a long way since the Amiga days of producing customized chips, and the parts today are pretty much commoditized. To go against what the general market wants is financial suicide.

The only thing Mr BS is doing is pointing out he has nothing more than an AROS incompatible Linux box with a licensed Amiga logo engraved for free on Wesena HTPC mini ITX cases.

We don't want to buy such a machine which has nothing to do with Amiga in any way at all from any possible perspective anyone who ever used/owned/wanted an Amiga will have.

Even MorphOS, OS4 and AROS boxes aren't technically Amiga machines just a development to allow AHI/RTG system software to run without actual UAE/WinUAE emulation.

4) interesting points have been made in regards to how 'he sees' the Amiga brand, namely that it is a performance brand, and the old ideas were simply 'a concept'. In this day and age somehow he is right about it I feel….you don't see people using customized chipsets anymore save retro sites like A.org…..

His Amiga Mini has zero expansion capabilities and very sub standard graphics horsepower. So if we are going to talk about conceptual re-imagining of a machine then this 100% reliance on the fast i7 CPU to make up for lack of graphical hardware acceleration of the low end GPU on the motherboard (and no space to add a $400 PCI-E graphics card in that case) then what he has created is a virtual Atari Mega ST at best.

Like we said HTPC forces you to use on board sub optimal GPU in the machine's casing and this leads to a PC that will be basically the same as an off the shelf $400 PC performance wise. If he had thought this out better he would have chosen AMD technology with superior GPU performance built into the CPU cores on a single chip. Or of course built an A1000/A3000 case and allowed room for people to put extremely powerful graphics cards in such machines. As it stands the technical limitations of the Amiga Mini computer make it suitable only for little teenage girls who spend all day on Windows Live Messenger or Facebook or Youtube and may run a copy of Barbie and Ken. Your Amiga Mini will not even run the 2005 game of the year Battlefield 2. Your specs, CPU aside, are actually circa 2003

ergo everything he said was a load of BS and this is because all he can afford to do is sell rubbish HTPC machines for excessively high price with a free engraving service to make the most of uncle Bill's license to use the brand!

To be fair, after looking at the answers after his reply, I think the Amiga community in general I think is being too harsh on his company, and being too pessimistic about certain things a little too early. He has said he is a small company slowly working to rebuild the Commodore and Amiga brands. As  Leo has mentioned many times before Rome wasn't built in a day…..

CUSA I believe is doing things right - it's not doing anything 'wrong' except maybe have slightly more expensive offerings in some product lines to Apple? But even then it's coming down cheap.
I just heard they launched the new Vic Mini the other day….and that's a completely new product to the last one (which I remembered was similar to the Amiga Mini)….

We are not being harsh, the only bad mouthed delusional people around this place are the secret C=USA groupies that hang round here lately.

Their cases are badly chosen, the design nothing to do with Amiga case designs any time between 1985 and 1994, the limited expandibility of chosen cases embarrassing (no chance of PCI cards in there), their motherboard choice is not even compatible with AROS.

So you tell me, how is anything he has done not anything I couldn't have done in an afternoons work? And we are supposed to be interested?

The gospel of B[ull]S[hit] is not worshipped here. And his groupies (or him in disguise) coming here and insulting people will not help his cause.

1. Amigans wouldn't use the Amiga Mini for a doorstop.
2. Regular Joe Public would not pay the price for that, rather an ASUS EEE PC

My take on this is that the C64x was a commercial disaster for him due to the bespoke case and custom keyboard and now his anger and lack of available cash has forced him to selotape an Amiga logo on an unsuitable chinese HTPC computer and he is angry this will also be a failure.

Had he bothered to make even just an A500/1200 style case and use a standard PC full size keyboard in there and sold those two parts together at a reasonable price he may have a viable business. As it stands OTHER people will do a better job than him of this and it may be that this is all people are interested in due to the need to have suitable business contacts to produce such esoteric items today in a world of Dell/ASUS PCs for peanuts at PC World.

Amiga Mini is neither

1. Unique looking.
2. Unique in hardware under the case.
3. Unique in ability to run Amiga related OS like AROS
4. Keenly priced
5. Anything that people who have two hands couldn't build for half the price identically

RIP C=USA. I give them 12 months before the whole thing shuts down due to bad management and product selection giving rise to death of his business.

My advice to them, and this is coming from someone who has sold over 2000 computers to earn my living before I have any more business lessons lol, is to discount the C64x and start promoting it.

Lack of 9 pin joystick to USB adaptors aside it is the only product they have which is remotely saleable and the only issue potentially interested parties have is the price. So drop the price by 40% and they might stave off bankruptcy.