dnetc benchmarks

[amigadave]

While I understand what you are really saying, this is exactly the mind-set that, when it becomes the norm of a the population, will make sure that an eventual "X2000" announced this year (if such is even remotely conceivable, which it probably isn't) will cost $4,000 or more, come out in 2014 or later, offering some 2009 level performance (provided that PPC is even able to provide something that can deliver some 2009 level performance), instead of making a go for the powerful but cheap mainstream options that's already here! Cheap, powerful HW and a platform growth to come with that, will *never* become an alternative now! That's how things goes in OS4 land, you have been going in the wrong direction since Sam440, it continued some more with Sam460, and now X1000. You will continue down that road, there is no turning back.

Of course Trevor Dickinson's accomplishments is worthy some applauds in the way that he struggled against all odds, etc. But the result is taking the OS4 platform one more step down the wrong road. For this reason, a system like the X1000 shouldn't have happened, it should have been cancelled. What he did was putting a giant meatball in the central square of Ethiopia's capital Addis Ababa, out of reach for practically everyone starving for meatballs but some except few, while the rest of the people would need and want a powerful system to run the OS4 now can't do that. It's out of reach, so some of them leaves, move on. The applauds, the cheering that this is the way to go, will only make sure that even fewer people will get access to any follow-ups to this, because the trend has been to always be bigger, faster, and more expensive; Sam440, Sam460, X1000.

But this suits me fine, actually. Things are the way they are; OS4 is HW oriented, MorphOS is SW/OS oriented. I like this, it's good for MorphOS!

Congratulations on learning how to express your views without rude and inflamatory remarks, or sarcasm added in with them.  They are much more effective at getting your point across than most of your previous posts have been.

I agree that OS4 & MorphOS should be ported to the cheapest and highest performing, readily available PPC hardware.  Be that existing, or something that can be produced new.  New products will likely not fit this description, because they will most likely be produced in very small quantities and the cost of parts purchased in such small quantities is always higher than parts bought in the hundreds of thousands, or millions of parts.  Also, you have to pay for design engineering and testing of any new product, where someone else has already paid for that in any existing product, still in production, or used products.

Right now, it appears that the Apple G5 computers are the most logical choice for the highest performing, cheapest and most readily available PPC computers that OS4 & MorphOS could be ported to.  It is yet to be seen if either team will decide to complete work to port OS4, or MorphOS to any G5 models.  I hope that both teams choose this path, as my dual 2.7GHz G5 is working just fine running MacOSX & Linux and has replaced my quad core 3.0GHz Core2Quad Extreme Windows computer, as my favorite desktop of choice, while I wait and hope that one or both PPC Amiga-Like OSes make the right choice to support it while they are waiting for some better hardware to come along, or while they work on moving their PPC OS to x86 and/or ARM.

In the mean time I will enjoy using my X1000 and my Dual 1.42GHz G4 PowerMac to run OS4.1.5 and MorphOS2.7 and not worry about what either team is going to do, as nothing I do or say will make any difference in what decisions get made.

@cgutjahr,

If you are going to make logical arguments to back up your questions, it is just going to kill off all discussion in this thread. ;-)

[Iggy]

If you are going to make logical arguments to back up your questions, it is just going to kill off all discussion in this thread. ;-)

:roflmao:

Oh my! Civility breaks out again.

Yes David, I too would very much like to use G5 Macs.

In fact, eventually I wouldn't mind trying to figure out how to get the last models (with PCIe expansion slots) to use PC Radeon HD video cards.

[amigadave]

If AmigaOS 4 ever gets ported to the Mac, it will be doomed to stay on old hardware forever, as the market for new machines would be obliterated- which is exactly what they do not want.
AmigaOS on Mac would be a big mistake IMHO. We should be encouraging new AOS capable machines, not destroying them.

As much as I like Trevor, if new computers for OS4 cannot be designed, manufactured and marketed that are faster/more powerful AND cheaper, or close to the cost of existing used G4 & G5 Mac hardware, they should not be made.

I am happy that I am getting my X1000, but it was not a good business decision and I strongly believe that porting OS4 to used Mac G4 & G5 computers would have been a much better decision that would have resulted in more OS4 users and developers.  I hope that Trevor is considering this before he spends more money on any future designs.  I want to continue supporting him and I still give him thanks for making the X1000 possible, but I also understand the people that oppose that decision and want cheaper hardware that is almost as powerful.

I don't know what will happen in the future, and given my age, I might not need to worry about what happens with new Amiga hardware in the future.  My X1000 will hopefully keep running for the next 15 to 20 years and by that time I should have learned how to program on it pretty good and had a great time doing it, and I won't need, or be interested in anything after that (I'll be 70-75 years old by then).

You youngsters fight out what should happen next, but I still say that porting to the existing G4 & G5 Mac's will increase the number of users and developers faster than any other single event that will ever happen in our remaining community.

[TheDaddy]

Let's just be happy someone even bothers to make new hardware for the Amiga market...

[Piru]

Let's just be happy someone even bothers to make new hardware for the Amiga market...

I'm not sure if there's reason for happiness if it means that more cost effective solutions are ruled out, and you get all sort of nasty side-effects instead.

The benefits of "new hw" are limited: with the tiny production runs the price will be sky high. In 24 months the guarantee has run out. The custom HW with very limited production runs and ultra-rare CPU means that if something should break, the replacement parts will be almost impossible to source. Who will be able to handle the repairs for these systems now? In 5 years time?

I'm all for new HW when it makes sense (read: HW that is widely available with reasonable prices, with spare parts and repair possibilities). It doesn't translate well to new PowerPC desktop hardware.

[kas1e]

Let's just be happy someone even bothers to make new hardware for the Amiga market...

That just wrong. If there is enough cheap and good old hw (like macs with g4/g5) there is no point in making new hardware unless it will be faster _a lot_ , and "a bit" more cost in compare with other solutions.  

X1000 in end of all , after 2 years of spending time and resources on it, mean about the same speed as macs, a lot higher price, no drivers for every onboard device, no support for that absolutly, and tottally unnecessary xena crap about what there was so much fuzz. Why, why all of this should be so irrational and unlogical when all is coming to aos4 and hw for it ? From one side, everyone cry we need more users and more developers, from another, such kind of strange moves in irrational directions. Only fanatics will buy overpriced hw, which by speed the same as macs, but fanatics will not help OS to grow up => no users/developers => 10 years for implementing single piece of change.

[TheDaddy]

@Piru

>>I'm not sure if there's reason for happiness if it means that more cost effective solutions are ruled out, and you get all sort of nasty side-effects instead.

Nope. Happy means that until 2006-7 there was nothing to run OS4 on.

If anything goes wrong with the new hardware we'll surely find alternatives, I am 100% behind ACube and their immense efforts.

But, sorry to ask this, why do you care so much? Don't you develop MOS?

[TheDaddy]

@kas1e

>>That just wrong. If there is enough cheap and good old hw (like macs with g4/g5) there is no point in making new hardware unless it will be faster _a lot_ , and "a bit" more cost in compare with other solutions.

Oh blimey! This is not the case so why keep going on about it? They have decieded to not use old macs for OS4, end of story, let's move on. We have ACube and the X1000. One day maybe things will change and everyone will be running OS4 on a 12 core x86 machine.

>>X1000 in end of all , after 2 years of spending time and resources on it, mean about the same speed as macs, a lot higher price, no drivers for every onboard device, no support for that absolutly, and tottally unnecessary xena crap about what there was so much fuzz.

Well I don't know why they decided to go that way, maybe they wanted to create something new, maybe in the future all those things on the motherboard will be used and supported, maybe they made mistakes, we don't know. Time will tell. But at the moment I wouldn't mind an X1000 just for the simple fact that the cpu is the fastest I can get for OS4.

[Piru]

@Piru

why do you care so much?

It's good to know all the facts. When you do, you can do informed choices.

Don't you develop MOS?

Yes. Why? I care about lots of things, not just those surrounding MorphOS.

I know you may not like it, but guess if I care?

[TheDaddy]

It's good to know all the facts. When you do, you can do informed choices.


Yes. Why? I care about lots of things, not just those surrounding MorphOS.

I know you may not like it, but guess if I care?

So it's not to underline how crap OS4 is? Because if it's not the hardware then it must be the software...anyway we agree to disagree.

[takemehomegrandma]

I am happy that I am getting my X1000, but it was not a good business decision

Genesi is a company that has tried pretty much everything in the PPC when it comes to netbooks/handhelds, desktops and servers. By "tried" I didn't mean they actually released products in the end however...

The "TetraPower" was a dual 970MP CPU (each CPU being dual core, meaning *quad core* in total) motherboard, that represented the very peak of G5 performance. This would have stomped the X1000 down in the ground, totally run it over performance wise, only using *one* of the CPU's. This was cancelled, IIRC because they didn't manage to secure the support from a big enough customer, and didn't get the support they felt they needed from IBM (Having support from Freescale meant the world for the Pegasos and Efika). In the end, this would mean a way too high consumer price, so there was no point in continuing. IIRC the price would still have been *much lower* than the X1000 though. And this was in *2006*!



Another project that was cancelled after some initial design work, was the 8641D based motherboard. I guess they couldn't find a way for it to make sense, business wise. Which (allways) is a requirement.

Both the above would have made really nice desktop or server motherboards back in its days (not so much today, of course).

They also had the 8610 targeted for some time. They planned to use this in a Efika/Netbook style motherboard AFAIK. Being (probably) the highest performing G4 CPU's (due to removed bus bottle necks from prior versions AFAIK, which also made the Altivec shine a lot brighter), it would have been quite powerful, compared to the competition in this segment, Example 1, Example 2. (Later, by a community initiative, Genesi agreed to set up a bounty program to develop a fully open source desktop motherboard based on the 8610, design by b-plan, free for all to use. It was a bounty program in several steps, meaning it would cost tens of thousands of dollars in the end (can't really remember exactly how much, was it as much as $60,000? Just for fun, try to divide that with 3,000 ). Community interest was moot, to say the least, you are free to speculate about the reasons. (Also note that more money than what currently shows was collected, many must have withdrawn their bounties, I for one traded my donation for an Efika MX Smartbook and a Smarttop)).

After the failed 5121e/LimePC effort, they ditched PPC altogether, and went ARM.

I have an Efika MX Smartbook, and an Efika MX Smarttop myself. Nice little things!

Since then they have actually "cancelled" another project. After spending lots of time developing a much improved board (and very slimmed down and optimized, cost wise) based on the i.MX53 chip (which is an improved version of the i.MX51 used in the Efika MX), they decided to not pursue that route any further. The board is ready, the OS and software support is there, it's a computer completely ready for market. But they have come to the conclusion that at this point, it makes more sense to pursue the i.MX6 instead.

These are just a few examples, many others exists (like the blade server, CPU cards, etc).

My point: Note that this is the very opposite of the "to hell with how much it is going to cost, we need a new, more powerful Amiga(One)" kamikaze strategy?

[takemehomegrandma]

let's move on. We have ACube and the X1000.

When will it finally sink in to you, that neither of these are/will be/*can be* an alternative for most people, that for most people, there is *nothing* in the "OS4 world" to move on to?

This isn't a solution, it's a road to death of the OS4 platform. I guess you will notice once you get there. Or then again, maybe not...

[Tripitaka]

When will it finally sink in to you, that neither of these are/will be/*can be* an alternative for most people, that for most people, there is *nothing* in the "OS4 world" to move on to?

This isn't a solution, it's a road to death of the OS4 platform. I guess you will notice once you get there. Or then again, maybe not...

Running on old macs is a road to death too unless you end up porting to something else, how is that any different for MOS over OS4?

As for the "only release hardware when it makes sense" attitude around this thread, why pay for an '030 accelerator? a MOS license ? or even a flicker fixer. They are all insane prices for most people to pay when you could get a PC for a couple of hundred bucks complete with Windows. Ahh, but that's the point isn't it, we are not "most people".

[takemehomegrandma]

Running on old macs is a road to death too unless you end up porting to something else, how is that any different for MOS over OS4?

An easy and good (the best) way of keeping afloat, while searching for new land to settle...

[kas1e]

When will it finally sink in to you, that neither of these are/will be/*can be* an alternative for most people, that for most people, there is *nothing* in the "OS4 world" to move on to?

There can be some "move on to", if only macs ports, then x86 migration, but for that need a lot of developers and time, but year by year user and developers base only shrink. Sometime it can looks like not all that bad, and there is some new users and devs, but in compare how many leave because of all that irrational stuff ..

This isn't a solution, it's a road to death of the OS4 platform. I guess you will notice once you get there. Or then again, maybe not...

The answer is:

[Tripitaka]

An easy and good (the best) way of keeping afloat, while searching for new land to settle...

That depends on your business model and future plans, I don't pretend to know what deals Hyperion are planning for the future. They seem pretty "afloat" right now so no worries from me. Either way, you've got MOS and if your happy with that, well, more power to you I guess. Enjoy it, and if OS4 dies you still have MOS. Either way the Amiga scene has plenty of NG choice right now, X1000, SAM, MOS or AROS, the choice is yours. Just don't go deluding yourself that any of them will be competition for Microsoft, it ain't going to happen.