68060 vs 68040

[dougal]

I dont know where this whole "'040 has trouble with whdload" thing comes from. Ive had no more problems with an '040 than I even did with an '030.
If your main interest is in running whdload though there's no need to go beyond an '030 anyway.

The '040 is missing some instructions that are found in '030 CPU's which is what cause some incompatibilities with whdload. I had an Apollo 1240 and I can confirm that about 20-25% of the games (which worked fine with an '030) i tried gave me problems.

'060 CPU's seem to have most if not all of these instructions not found in the '040. In fact every whdload game i threw at my '060 works fine.

As you said though, if all you care about is whdload then a 68030 is the way to go. Cheap, cheerful and ultra compatible.

[fishy_fiz]

And '060 is missing even more isntructions than '040.
The difference in your experiences may be due to the '060 being set up properly and the '040 not.
I currently use a 40mhz '040 and 9 out of 10 whdload games work just fine. Pretty much the same level of compatibility as an '030 when I used to use one.

[Daedalus]

I agree with fishy_fiz there - you might get away with Workbench type use with an 040 just bolted on and using the Commodore 68040.library, but an 060 will surely crash within minutes if they're not correctly set up. The 68040.library which is supplied as part of the OS is for the 040 cards manufactured by Commodore, but should be replaced by the appropriate library for your specific card. That will most likely flush out any residual issues with WHDload, and be equivalent to the 68060 as regards compatibility.

[Brian]

If you ask me I'm always going to say either stick with 030 for compability or go all out for speed and glory with the 060. There's realy 3 things to concider. Compability, Speed and Heat/Power

Compability: is less with 040/060 than 020/030, and you will at times run into issues with software that wont run on 040/060 but works on 030. The compability is about the same between 040 and 060 but the brand will be a much bigger factor here (stay away from Apollo if you ask me).

Speed: increase from 030/50 to 040/25 is for me is not worth it over the compability issue, however any faster and the speed factor makes up for it. The speed of the 040 is great over the 030 and the speed of the 060 is great over the 040, however we're talking sleek AmigaOS here so the extre CPU speed is not always felt that much... unless we're talking FPU speed where the 060 is miles ahead.

Heat/Power: is an issue with the 040. It is powerhungry and runs hot. In a bigbox Amiga this isn't a big problem but for the smaller A1200 (A500) it can lead to all sorts of stability issues and the 040 will requier a heatsink and likely a fan aswell.

030
- Quite Slow
+ Performance/Cost
+ Compatible
- No FPU

040
+ Quite fast
+ Performance/Cost
- Incompatible (compared to 030)
- Slow builtin FPU
- Runs hot/Powerhungry

060
+ Very fast
- Performance/Cost
- Incompatible (compared to 030)
+ Fast Buitin FPU
+ Runs cool

[Mrs Beanbag]

Whichever you choose I might put in an offer for your old '030 card!  We have 3 A1200's in the house and only one with an accelerator.

[Crisisdog]

Get the 68060 if you can, but a 68040 is still better than a 68030.

A 25MHz 68040 is fater than a 50MHz 68030 per the benchmarks I used to run, somewhere around 10 to 20% faster.  I used to have the 68030 in my A1200 and the 68040 (A3640) in my A3000.  I ended up finding a WarpEngine 040/40, no luck at that time with a used 060 board.  The 68040 @ 40MHz would open modern JPEG files (somewhere around 1024 x 768) in about 15 to 20 seconds.  Eventually I got a "new" GVP 68060 @ 50MHz from SoftHut, the same JPEG files now open in two or three seconds.

[rvo_nl]

I loved my 030/50, and I never liked my 040/25 much. Then, I got an 060 + PPC. It really is in a different league. You will never look back. With or without the PPC, its good to know you have reached the 'limit', even though its quite an investment. If you are serious with your machine and use it more for productivity/workbench stuff than playing games, consider ppc+bvision. If not, or if on a big box machine, a 060 alone will provide plenty of fun.

[AmigaClassicRule]

I loved my 030/50, and I never liked my 040/25 much. Then, I got an 060 + PPC. It really is in a different league. You will never look back. With or without the PPC, its good to know you have reached the 'limit', even though its quite an investment. If you are serious with your machine and use it more for productivity/workbench stuff than playing games, consider ppc+bvision. If not, or if on a big box machine, a 060 alone will provide plenty of fun.

I am skipping Amiga classic PPC all together and I am intending big time in selling my 68030. I already sold the Amiga 1200 motherboard because of the clockport bug on the motherboard and ordered a new motherboard which is coming my way. I am intending to sell my 68030 and this 68030 have also a SCSI card expansion that comes with it.

But before I sell it I need to find my new expansion card, buy it, confirm it is shipped to me then I will sell the 68030 I have with scsi card.

I also have two Amiga 500 Commodore power supply that I plan to sell and and an Amiga Amiga mouse I am intending to sell as well.

I thank you all for taking your time and helping me decide. I have decided to go for the 68060 and I am hoping to get a 68060 with a 128 MB of Fast RAM.

[mechy]

I just wanted to ask one simple question. I am planning on selling my 68030 to do an upgrade as the 68030 is too slow or me and the 16 MB RAM will not cut it, even for the Amiga classic.

The question I am asking is...is the difference in speed that much high in a 68040 @ 33 Mhz over 68060 @ 50 Mhz that it is worth it to skip the 68040 all the together and attempt to get my hands on a 68060 @ 50 Mhz.

SO much misinformation being thrown around in this thread. the MYTH that 060's all run cool is not true and all 040's run hot is pure BS.

What determines is a 040 or 060 runs hot is its MASK in most cases,not that it is simply a 040 or 060.

The mask is generally what size the transistors are in the chip at the time of manufacture and probably how much gate resistance the transistors had at the time,(rudimentary explanation but this is the easy way to explain it). As the years went on,the manufacturing process managed smaller and more efficient transistors in the package which meant they ran cooler in most cases.

I have 060 chips here you could fry an egg on and 040 chips here barely that run luke warm .

many AMIGA accelerators used early mask 040's and 060's and they run hot. I have had warp engine 040/40mhz cards that ran pretty cool.I have had a new 4060dt 68060 from softhut in the last years that could heat the house(they really should have a fan/heatsink with the old 060 rev they come with-at least the one i had).

example. a XC68060 with the early mask of 01f43g will run quite hot.the slightly newer one with the 01g65v runs less hot,and a brand new mask of 71e41j on a MC68060 will run very cool.

same with the 68040's  the chip i just desoldered off the 68040 apollo is a mask of 02E31F xc68040rc40M and runs very hot while the l88m mask 040 doesnt.There was even a 68040V that was 3.3v and ran fairly cool in its later masks but to my knowledge this was not used in any amiga accelerators.

So PLEASE quit spreading the nonsense that all 040's run hot and are unstable and all 060's run cool,. its simply not true.

Also many stability issues were caused by some Accelerators-*cough* apollo's *cough*(be it 040 or 060) having poor edge connectors and making bad connections. many 040 chips run no hotter than the some 030/50's.

To answer the original question: a 040/33 is good,but a 060 is better. go for the 060 if you can.

Mech

[matt3k]

@amigaclassicrule

I never had a 33MHz 040, so I can't compare to that.

I have had a 40MHz 040 (Warp Engine 3040) and a 50MHz 060 (Cyberstorm MKII).

I ran them side by side in 3000D's and I kept the WE, and from a overall usability standpoint the WE was better.  I have always used oxypatcher on the 040 and macrosystems 040.library and they are 100% stable.  Ran the 040 for 15 years 24/7 with no issues.

My advice will depend on the card you can acquire and the usage of you system.  If your doing lots of math functions really try to get an 060 with Oxy.  Other than that, either processor will be just fine.

My personal cards of choice would be a WE 3040 or CS MK III. (for a 3000D).

What ever the used market will offer at any one time will present delays.  Choose a card first and just wait, otherwise you will always kick yourself.  The right card in the Amiga makes a significant difference.

Good hunting...

[dougal]

And '060 is missing even more isntructions than '040.
The difference in your experiences may be due to the '060 being set up properly and the '040 not.
I currently use a 40mhz '040 and 9 out of 10 whdload games work just fine. Pretty much the same level of compatibility as an '030 when I used to use one.

That explains why my Apollo 1240 only like 7/10 games worked. I used the 68040.library which came with Workbench 3.1.

[Xanxi]

68040 is not good enough for what you would expect these days from your amiga:
- not stable enough due to considerable heat and heavy 5V need
- not powerful enough compared to a 50MHz 68060 by a 3 or 4 ratio
- not compatible enough compared to 68020/68030

You amiga needs either 68060 or 68030 for a smooth experience.

[paul1981]

I used an Apollo 1240 @ 40 MHz for a while and I have to say it ran everything perfectly well without any issues.  It was also extremely fast compared to my previous card a 68030 at 40Mhz. An 040 blows any 030 clean out of the water.
If 68060's never existed, I'd still be happy with an 040 at 40MHz.  But because they do exist I had to get one anyway.  

I have to agree with Mechy though.... 060's with naff masks run just as hot as 040's with naff masks (ie fry an egg hot).  I have a Blizzard 1260 & Apollo 1260, they could both quite easily fry an egg.

[mechy]

68040 is not good enough for what you would expect these days from your amiga:
- not stable enough due to considerable heat and heavy 5V need
- not powerful enough compared to a 50MHz 68060 by a 3 or 4 ratio
- not compatible enough compared to 68020/68030

You amiga needs either 68060 or 68030 for a smooth experience.

WRONG,WRONG,AND WRONG. there is absolutely nothing wrong with the 040.Read my previous message about whats hot and whats not.
Blame the poor A1200 design and voltage drop,blame poor A1200 psu's,blame bad apollo connectors and crappy accelerators,but quit spreading these myths that are not true.
See my explanation above debunking your heat sentence and the 040 does not use that much more power than a 030/50.have you even checked it?

 I used a warpengine 040/40 for many years,blizzard 1240,and cyberstorm 040 MKII and they were all reliable,ran at a reasonable temp,and it i didn't have compatibility troubles.Many 030/50's run hot enough to burn you when going full blast. Games can always be a problem because many bang hardware directly. this is the games fault,not the 040.
If anything the 040 is caught in the middle much like 2.x roms were.
Mech

[yakumo9275]

are not all the 060's but the last mask all bugged and not reccomended? I remember reading some of the bugs in the 01g65v mask.

I understand all cpu have errata but I thought I read somewhere that the older 060 masks had bugs that software workarounds for were very slow and penalty inducing..

[matt3k]

Agree with Mechy and Paul,

So many factors come into play with performance, application, and usability it is impossible to make blanket statements.

For my use, the 40MHz 3040 Warp Engine provided a better user experience that my 50MHz Cyberstorm MK II in a 3000D.  I was using the 3k for word processing, web browsing, financial reporting, email, and light DTP.  The 3040 delivered a faster overall experience then the CS for that usage, I tested them side by side and that is why I kept the the 3040 and sold off the CS.  If I was ray tracing and doing lots of math as my main usage I certainly would have kept the CS and sold the WE.

The 060 is by itself isn't a great solution unless it is paired to it's own high performance local memory and has it's own Fast SCSI controller.  I would trade a CS MKII in a heartbeat for a Warp Engine.  Macrosystems did a better job in that case.  Now if you were to bring a CS MKIII into play, I would clearly take the CS.

Truth be told, the step up to the 040 @40MHz from an 030 @25MHz (with the WE) was FAR greater then the move to the 040 to the 060 @50MHz.  I remember says to other Amiga folks...  "This is it???", it really was a dissapointment.   Clearly the difference was with the packaging of the WE, and how good it was made.