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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #119 from previous page: February 10, 2012, 11:11:29 AM »
Quote from: HenryCase;680050
I'm sorry, what imaginary current are you referring to?

Well we all know V=IR, right?  Ohm's law.  Well if you let R be a complex number (we write it as Z instead and call it "impedance" rather than resistance) you can model impedance and capacitance as well.  The voltage and current ends up complex as well, of course, which makes no sense, but nevertheless it works.  I don't know what the "impedance" of a memristor would be, I can only surmise that this simple "electronic theory hack" isn't quite up to the task of representing it.  The problem is that it's quite ad hoc, as far as I can tell it's not properly derived from fundamental laws, it's just made up and used because it works.

Quote
The function of present day FPGA devices is fixed at boot time, how do you intend to get around this? You may be able to get around it using multiple fast booting FPGAs (see article here: http://electronicdesign.com/article/digital/fpgas-boot-in-a-flash15649.aspx ), is that what you intended?

You can configure the LUTs to act as register files.  The same LUTs that would normally be used to hold your fixed designs can still be changed internally.  They are Read/Write.  What is needed is a design scheme that would let you do this in a useful way.

Whether our FPGA works on memristors or not, we need a design.  You can't just throw memristors at it and magically it becomes reconfigurable on the fly.  It might be reconfigurable quicker, but it will still have the same limitations.  It's not the SRAM that's the problem.  There are strategies for partial reconfiguration, but they all assume the design being fed in from some outside source.

You can design a DMA controller in an FPGA.  If you can access external memory your design can pump data in and populate its own LUTs.  I think a good analogy might be something like Conway's Game of Life.  (Surprisingly, it is Turing complete!  In fact I'm amused by the idea that given a board large enough, one could simulate John Conway.  But I digress.)  The external bootstrap circuit feeds in a small "agent" that has a DMA and a ruleset, the rest of the unconfigured cells are basically its playground, where it can wander about and pull in design blocks through its DMA and write them to the LUTs surrounding it.  We'd need it to be able to grow and branch and create paths that packets can be sent along.
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Offline HenryCase

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #120 on: February 10, 2012, 12:30:32 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;680056
Well we all know V=IR, right?  Ohm's law.  Well if you let R be a complex number (we write it as Z instead and call it "impedance" rather than resistance) you can model impedance and capacitance as well.  The voltage and current ends up complex as well, of course, which makes no sense, but nevertheless it works.  I don't know what the "impedance" of a memristor would be, I can only surmise that this simple "electronic theory hack" isn't quite up to the task of representing it.  The problem is that it's quite ad hoc, as far as I can tell it's not properly derived from fundamental laws, it's just made up and used because it works.


Let me put it to you like this, do you understand how memristors work at the molecular level? Please watch that 6 minute video I posted before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvA5r4LtVnc

There's nothing mysterious about this, all that is happening is electrons can be made to move between two different materials based on the direction of the current applied over them. This device happens to exhibit the properties described for a memristor, so they unsurprisingly called it a memristor. In simple terms, a memristor is a device where the flux and charge affect each other.

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;680056

Whether our FPGA works on memristors or not, we need a design.  You can't just throw memristors at it and magically it becomes reconfigurable on the fly.  


Oh dear. I'm not throwing memristors at FPGAs and 'magically' expecting it to be reconfigurable, I know for a fact that memristors will make FPGA devices reconfigurable, because THE PEOPLE THAT DISCOVERED THE MEMRISTOR ARE SAYING THE SAME THING. Please see here:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nl901874j

Please stop trying to shoehorn your existing knowledge into this new model, and please try to see that use of memristors can alter the architectural possibilities for FPGAs. Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 12:33:43 PM by HenryCase »
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #121 on: February 10, 2012, 01:14:30 PM »
Quote from: HenryCase;680060
Let me put it to you like this, do you understand how memristors work at the molecular level? Please watch that 6 minute video I posted before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvA5r4LtVnc

No I don't, and I watched the video and I still don't.  Solid state physics was never my best subject.

Quote
In simple terms, a memristor is a device where the flux and charge affect each other.

Ok well, whatever.  It's still a device that doesn't fit into the generalised impedance model, which I'm saying is inadequate and makes no sense because it was made up ad-hoc to describe only what we knew already.  I'm saying that a better theory might predict even more different types of passive components.

Quote
Oh dear. I'm not throwing memristors at FPGAs and 'magically' expecting it to be reconfigurable, I know for a fact that memristors will make FPGA devices reconfigurable, because THE PEOPLE THAT DISCOVERED THE MEMRISTOR ARE SAYING THE SAME THING. Please see here:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nl901874j

Please stop trying to shoehorn your existing knowledge into this new model, and please try to see that use of memristors can alter the architectural possibilities for FPGAs. Thanks.

Memristors won't make FPGAs reconfigurable, or anything else.  Well maybe it will make them smaller.  It's a switch.  Like the guy is saying, you can replace ten transistors with one memristor (I'll take his word for it).  Maybe that opens up all sorts of new possibilities, but a possibility isn't a device.  You still have to DESIGN a dynamically reconfigurable FPGA, whether you use memristors or not.  No matter what components you use, even if it's alien technology that's a million years in advance of our own, how to design an "FPGA-like device" that you can reconfigure while it's running is still an architectural challenge.  And I'm saying it's possible already, even without memristors.  (With memristors, it would be even better, I guess.)

I can't read the full text of that article you posted, but the abstract doesn't mention anything about dynamic reconfiguration.  "Reconfigurable logic" could describe present FPGAs.
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Offline HenryCase

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #122 on: February 10, 2012, 01:58:32 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;680063
No I don't, and I watched the video and I still don't.  Solid state physics was never my best subject.

Ok well, whatever.  It's still a device that doesn't fit into the generalised impedance model, which I'm saying is inadequate and makes no sense because it was made up ad-hoc to describe only what we knew already.  I'm saying that a better theory might predict even more different types of passive components.


I'm all up for entertaining alternative theories, but would suggest you'll have a better time of forming successful theories about what's happening with these devices if you understand how the electrons are moving in this device. Let's start with the basics: what makes a material positively or negatively electrically charged?

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;680063

Memristors won't make FPGAs reconfigurable, or anything else.  Well maybe it will make them smaller.  It's a switch.  Like the guy is saying, you can replace ten transistors with one memristor (I'll take his word for it).  Maybe that opens up all sorts of new possibilities, but a possibility isn't a device.  You still have to DESIGN a dynamically reconfigurable FPGA, whether you use memristors or not.  No matter what components you use, even if it's alien technology that's a million years in advance of our own, how to design an "FPGA-like device" that you can reconfigure while it's running is still an architectural challenge.  And I'm saying it's possible already, even without memristors.  (With memristors, it would be even better, I guess.)

I can't read the full text of that article you posted, but the abstract doesn't mention anything about dynamic reconfiguration.  "Reconfigurable logic" could describe present FPGAs.


Again, you persist by insisting memristors won't make FPGAs reconfigurable. I don't really know how bluntly I should tell you that you're wrong before you'll listen. Take a look at this:
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/6/1699.full

I'll even quote you the relevant text to save you reading the whole thing:
Quote
A completely different type of demonstration is the conditional programming of a memristor by the integrated circuit in which it resides, which illustrates a key enabler for a reconfigurable architecture (21, 22, 25), memristor based logic (24) or an adaptive (or “synaptic”) circuit that is able to learn (26, 27). Based on a portion of the hybrid circuit described above, we showed that the output voltage from an operation could be used to reprogram a memristor inside the nanocrossbar array, which could have been used as memory, an electronic analog of a synapse or simply interconnect, to have a new function.


Do you believe me now? The reason I'm ignoring your hack to try to implement reconfigurable FPGAs using what we have now is that it's sub-optimal compared to memristor-based devices. I hope you agree.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #123 on: February 10, 2012, 02:52:09 PM »
Quote from: HenryCase;680071
I'm all up for entertaining alternative theories, but would suggest you'll have a better time of forming successful theories about what's happening with these devices if you understand how the electrons are moving in this device. Let's start with the basics: what makes a material positively or negatively electrically charged?

I don't know whether you're leading me or patronising me here.  Why, it's electrons, of course.  I'm not trying to form a theory of "these devices" in particular.  I know there are deeper theories in solid state physics to account for many different things, they are a little over my head to be honest with you.  I don't want to have to worry about individual electrons.  All I want to get my head round for now is what the imaginary components of current and voltage physically represent.  Usually the textbooks just shrug it off and tell you the imaginary components don't really mean anything physical at all, it's just some maths to sweep under the rug at the end of your calculations.  Which makes no sense.  It's all a bit fudged.  If I could just work out how to derive these things from Maxwell's Equations...

Quote
Again, you persist by insisting memristors won't make FPGAs reconfigurable. I don't really know how bluntly I should tell you that you're wrong before you'll listen.

Do be as blunt as you feel is necessary.  But FPGAs arlready are reconfigurable, that's what "Field Programmable" means.  The problem is reconfiguring it while it's still running.  The quote that caught my attention was this:

Quote
Simulations                   of these architectures have shown that by removing the  transistor-based configuration memory and associated routing circuits                   from the plane of the CMOS transistors and replacing  them with a crossbar network in a layer of metal interconnect above the                   plane of the silicon, the total area of an FPGA can be  decreased by a factor of 10 or more while simultaneously increasing                   the clock frequency and decreasing the power  consumption of the chip (21, 22).

In other words, the same thing, but better.  Memristors have other more specific advantages, from what I gather, if you want to build something like a hardware neural network.  Which I don't, personally.  So I think we might be talking at crossed purposes here.

Quote
Do you believe me now? The reason I'm ignoring your hack to try to implement reconfigurable FPGAs using what we have now is that it's sub-optimal compared to memristor-based devices. I hope you agree.

Well of course I believe you, I never doubted that it's possible to make a self-reconfigurable device.  But you would still have to design one.  They have shown that it's possible, but I still don't see that it isn't possible using transistors.  Memristors perhaps simplify the design, but I've still yet to see a detailed description of how this would actually work, functionally.  There is plenty about the strange properties of the memristor as a component.

Everything is sub-optimal.  Current FPGAs are maybe suboptimal by not being tomorrow's technology, but memristor devices are suboptimal for not actually existing yet.  I could go and buy myself a Virtex 6 tomorrow and implement my design on it.  I don't know where you are going to get your memristor-based technology from.  And I don't see how it is a "hack" to implement something interesting or useful on existing hardware.  I'm not proposing the use of undocumented features here.  There is nothing "hacky" about working with what you've got.
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Offline HenryCase

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #124 on: February 10, 2012, 04:36:19 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;680081
I don't know whether you're leading me or patronising me here.  Why, it's electrons, of course.  I'm not trying to form a theory of "these devices" in particular.  I know there are deeper theories in solid state physics to account for many different things, they are a little over my head to be honest with you.  I don't want to have to worry about individual electrons.  All I want to get my head round for now is what the imaginary components of current and voltage physically represent.  Usually the textbooks just shrug it off and tell you the imaginary components don't really mean anything physical at all, it's just some maths to sweep under the rug at the end of your calculations.  Which makes no sense.  It's all a bit fudged.  If I could just work out how to derive these things from Maxwell's Equations...


I agree with you, I think it's important to understand how voltage, current and other electric phenomena work at a fundamental level, and I don't like it when learning sources dismiss an understanding at this level as unnecessary.

The best analogy for voltage and current I can think of off the top of my head is the rain: if you think of rain as a circuit the change in the circuit depends on how much water vapour is held in higher elevation (clouds), and the rate at which rain drops fall. Voltage can be thought of as potential difference in energy, and current can be thought of as the rate at which the potential energy is used. So for rainclouds, the voltage is the height and amount of water vapour in clouds, and the current is the amount of water that falls to the ground at a point in time.

In electric circuits, electrons do all the work. Current and voltage are just two ways of describing the state of the electrons in the circuit.

This is the best introduction to electronics I've found so far. If you're already familiar with Maxwell's equations it may be covering ground you are already familiar with, but I'll share it just in case:
http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/electronics/

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;680081

In other words, the same thing, but better.  Memristors have other more specific advantages, from what I gather, if you want to build something like a hardware neural network.  Which I don't, personally.  So I think we might be talking at crossed purposes here.


A chip that can implement a neural network needs to be able to change its own structure, otherwise it wouldn't be able to 'learn'. It's a specific application of a run-time configurable device.

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;680081

Well of course I believe you, I never doubted that it's possible to make a self-reconfigurable device.  But you would still have to design one.


I don't intend to design one. I intend to buy one after they're manufactured. I don't even need to design my own PCB, a reference platform should suffice for a proof of concept. I've got plenty of research to do before I have a chance of implementing the real device, so this delay in availability is not a problem IMO.
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Offline Fats

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #125 on: February 10, 2012, 06:46:24 PM »
Quote from: HenryCase;680011
@Tripitaka

Now, I hinted before that there are some issues with memristors replacing RAM at the moment, but considering how new memristors are, I anticipate memristors will be used in RAM in the future, once these challenges are overcome.


Don't believe the hype. People in the microelectronics world are already searching for the Holly grail, e.g. the universal memory a long time. The previous candidate was MRAM or magnetic RAM but did not follow on the hype.
Maybe memristors is the next Holly grail but I find the chance small. Problem is that memristors are a kind of resistive memories. They depend on the change of the solid state of materials to get a change in resistance. I think this will always be more involved then putting a few electrons on a small capacitor which is the base for DRAM.
More less hype driven info is here

greets,
Staf.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 09:53:29 AM by Fats »
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Offline Fats

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #126 on: February 10, 2012, 06:47:52 PM »
Quote from: HenryCase;680050

The function of present day FPGA devices is fixed at boot time, how do you intend to get around this? You may be able to get around it using multiple fast booting FPGAs (see article here: http://electronicdesign.com/article/digital/fpgas-boot-in-a-flash15649.aspx ), is that what you intended?


look here
Staf.
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Offline HenryCase

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #127 on: February 11, 2012, 10:53:33 AM »
Quote from: Fats;680102
Don't believe the hype. People in the microelectronics world are already searching for the Holly grail, e.g. the universal memory a long time. The previous candidate was MRAM or magnetic RAM but did not follow on the hype.
Maybe memristors is the next Holly grail but I find the chance small. Problem is that memristors are a kind of resistive memories. They depend on the change of the solid state of materials to get a change in resistance. I think this will always be more involved then putting a few electrons on a small capacitor which is the base for DRAM.
More less hype driven info is here

greets,
Staf.

So, to paraphrase your main argument, you're saying "Because this earlier technology didn't live up to it's promise, I doubt this newer technology will live up to its promise either". Forgive me if I take such a notion with a grain of salt, I prefer to assess each individual technology on its own merits.

Besides, I never used the term 'holy grail', you chose to use this label, it's not my fault if you choose to use such inaccurate labels. The point I've been trying to get across is that memristors can be very beneficial for improving FPGAs, which will be beneficial for the computer system I'm proposing. I've hinted at a couple of times that a memristor-based RAM wouldn't be competitive with DRAM yet, but only mentioned this as an aside, as it's the performance improvements being brought to FPGAs that is relevant to this discussion.

However, as you brought it up, let's take a look at the challenges that memristors face to be a viable replacement for DRAM. The two main issues are:

1. Memristor-based RAM would currently be slower than DRAM.
2. Need to increase the read-write lifecycles that can be achieved with memristors before it can replace DRAM.

Let's put some approximate numbers in place for the points above so we know the level of challenges were looking at. When memristors were first discovered, there was talk that they were approximately x10 slower than DRAM. With regards to read-write lifecycles, current memristors have been show to have approximately 1 million read-write lifecycles.

It's worth bearing in mind that memristors are a new technology, whereas DRAM is a mature technology. However, since the discovery of memristors there have a lot of companies investing in R&D on this technology. Case in point, the speed. Back in 2008 we were looking at x10 slower performance. In 2012, we're now looking at equivalent write performance. See here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16725529
Quote
Recently, the Japanese memory manufacturer Elpida announced it had produced a prototype ReRAM memory with speeds comparable to DRAM.

"Its most attractive feature is that it can read/write data at high speeds using little voltage," Elpida said in a press release.

"It has a write speed of 10 nanoseconds, about the same as DRAM.


So in some ways, the speed gap issue has been addressed. The remaining issue then is the read-write cycles. I anticipate the companies working on memristor-tech for non-volatile storage will invest resources in improving the hardiness of memristor devices, and these benefits should eventually reach a tipping point where memristors become 'good enough' to replace DRAM. For example, if the read-write lifecycle improves to the point where memristor-based RAM would last 5 years in continuous use, this should be good enough performance to enable widespread memristor-based RAM usage. Also, the improved capacity of memristor devices may help this change happen sooner. If a 32GB memristor device was a lower cost than a 2GB DRAM, you could sell the memristor device as a 2GB DRAM replacement and use the massive redundancy to your advantage (effectively obtaining 16 million read-write cycles with current memristor performance using wear levelling).

With all that said, memristor-based RAM is off topic for what is being proposed, it's the improvements to FPGAs that matter here. I hope we can get back on topic now.
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Offline HenryCase

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #128 on: February 11, 2012, 10:58:50 AM »
Quote from: Fats;680103
look here
Staf.


Interesting, thanks for the link. Could you help further by advising on the lowest cost FPGA that offers partial reconfiguration?
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #129 on: February 11, 2012, 03:24:22 PM »
Quote from: HenryCase;680093
This is the best introduction to electronics I've found so far. If you're already familiar with Maxwell's equations it may be covering ground you are already familiar with, but I'll share it just in case:
http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/electronics/

I'll read that later, it may be "concise" but it's still quite a lot of reading!

Quote
A chip that can implement a neural network needs to be able to change its own structure, otherwise it wouldn't be able to 'learn'. It's a specific application of a run-time configurable device.

Indeed, but a neural network isn't programmable in the traditional sense.  Rather, you have to train it, which is a slow process.  Just like you can't retrain a plumber to be a heart surgeon in an afternoon, you can't retrain a GPU neural net to be a sound chip in a nanosecond.  I don't want a chip that learns, I want a chip that does what I tell it; Butlerian Jihad and all that.

Neural Networks are useful and interesting for all kinds of reasons, but it's not the problem I'm trying to solve.

Quote
I don't intend to design one. I intend to buy one after they're manufactured. I don't even need to design my own PCB, a reference platform should suffice for a proof of concept. I've got plenty of research to do before I have a chance of implementing the real device, so this delay in availability is not a problem IMO.

Well here's the rub.  But I do intend to design one... well, I intend to idly speculate about one... but if I could put my design on a standard FPGA I could put it on a memristor-based FPGA as well.

The problems that I'm trying to solve are architectural, rather than electronic.  We know it's possible for a cell to reconfigure itself, the problems are:
1) how does a cell know when to reconfigure itself?
2) how does it know what to reconfigure itself as?
3) how does the relevant data get there?

I'm thinking of a scheme based on systolic arrays.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #130 on: February 11, 2012, 03:28:23 PM »
Quote from: Fats;680103
look here
Staf.

Partial reconfiguration is possible, but it's still externally driven (by software running on a CPU).  What I'm trying to devise is some mechanism by which the FPGA itself (or rather, the configuration thereon) would drive its own reconfiguration.  Although if this is already possible in hardware, maybe two FPGAs could help each other out.
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Offline HenryCase

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #131 on: February 11, 2012, 07:05:14 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;680174
I'll read that later, it may be "concise" but it's still quite a lot of reading!


Yes, it is quite a bit to read. Hope it's useful to you. :)

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;680174

Neural Networks are useful and interesting for all kinds of reasons, but it's not the problem I'm trying to solve.


Neural networks aren't the problem I'm trying to solve either. However, a chip that can model neural networks without 'software' in the traditional sense is one that is reprogrammable, and it's this reprogrammability that I was trying to highlight.  

Anyway, I'll stop going on about memristors now, all I hope is that I've done some good in raising awareness of what's incoming in FPGA tech.

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;680174

Well here's the rub.  But I do intend to design one... well, I intend to idly speculate about one... but if I could put my design on a standard FPGA I could put it on a memristor-based FPGA as well.


Fair play to you! Of course I'm pleased to hear of your intentions, as like you say it'll allow you to get the ball rolling quicker.

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;680174

The problems that I'm trying to solve are architectural, rather than electronic.  We know it's possible for a cell to reconfigure itself, the problems are:
1) how does a cell know when to reconfigure itself?
2) how does it know what to reconfigure itself as?
3) how does the relevant data get there?

I'm thinking of a scheme based on systolic arrays.


To me, the answers to those three problems are found in the OS design, which is one subject we haven't talked much about yet. To date, I've not worked on the low level issues you're discussing, but would be interested in exploring the design possibilities with you. Could you tell me what systolic arrays are?

Thought you might be interested in Tabula FPGAs, Mrs Beanbag. Is this hardware in line with what you're looking for?
http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-04/reprogrammable-chips-could-allow-you-update-your-hardware-just-software

At the moment I'm working through the design of the file system. It's still early days, I'm currently working through the implications of taking Plan 9's 'everything is a file' notion (to people who know about this approach from Unix/Linux, Plan 9 takes this approach further), and morphing it into 'everything is an object'. The plan for this is to make every component in the OS as reusable as possible. So at one end of the system we'll be blurring the lines between hardware and software, and at the other end of the system we'll be blurring the lines between the OS and the applications. If you're interested to learn more about the plans for the OS I'm talking about, please feel free to ask me.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 07:24:21 PM by HenryCase »
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #132 on: February 11, 2012, 08:15:59 PM »
Quote from: HenryCase;680190
Yes, it is quite a bit to read. Hope it's useful to you. :)
Sadly it's the same story, "this is Ohm's law.  It just is."  It's empirical, there isn't really a derivation.  But never mind.  I've made it Lorentz Covariant and squashed it down to two dimensions (length+time), compared it to V=IZ and... I've got it in terms of Quaternions.

We can write it as V=IZ where Z = sigma_1.R - i sigma_3.X

Well that's kind of neat, but what in Bob's name do sigma_0 and sigma_2 represent?

Still working... I've got an equation for Z as a rank 2 tensor in terms of the current and charge distribution in the device, but it might take a little while to solve.  For resistance it is easy because the current is constant in a straight line.  For inductance we can represent it as current in a spiral (a circle plus a length displacement) and that makes sense.  A capacitor must be current with a dip in the middle (there would be equal current at both ends but with a polarisation of charge in the middle.)  Now are there any other interesting shapes we can bend a wire into?

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To me, the answers to those three problems are found in the OS design, which is one subject we haven't talked much about yet. To date, I've not worked on the low level issues you're discussing, but would be interested in exploring the design possibilities with you. Could you tell me what systolic arrays are?

Thought you might be interested in Tabula FPGAs, Mrs Beanbag. Is this hardware in line with what you're looking for?
http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-04/reprogrammable-chips-could-allow-you-update-your-hardware-just-software

Now that's interesting, I guess it's kind of similar in principle (to switch cores in and out) but my idea is to be able to fetch them from off chip, this has a certain number in reserve that it can switch in and out.  I could use that technique as well, I guess.

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... So at one end of the system we'll be blurring the lines between hardware and software, and at the other end of the system we'll be blurring the lines between the OS and the applications. If you're interested to learn more about the plans for the OS I'm talking about, please feel free to ask me.

You know this sounds very much like my own idea for an OS from several years back.
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Offline Fats

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #133 on: February 11, 2012, 08:56:15 PM »
Quote from: HenryCase;680159
So, to paraphrase your main argument, you're saying "Because this earlier technology didn't live up to it's promise, I doubt this newer technology will live up to its promise either". Forgive me if I take such a notion with a grain of salt, I prefer to assess each individual technology on its own merits.


Maybe I am biased; I am already working for more than 15 years in the microelectronics research and development institute imec. Over those years I have seen several memory technologies passing by that claim to be the next universal memory, e.g. that should be able to be used both as non-volatile memory and as main RAM.
At imec there is already for a few years a project on ReRAM; I was even involved in a tape-out in this project. Only recently HP started to hype their memristors but as an insider I know there are still a lot of roadblocks to take.
The term 'holy grail' I think I also got as a description that was used in an older eejournal article on universal memory (it is a really good site and I advise anybody who is interested in the topic to follow it). I found it appropriate as you seemed to have fallen for the HP marketing/hype; but I did not in any way wanted to use it in a pejorative way to you.

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However, as you brought it up, let's take a look at the challenges that memristors face to be a viable replacement for DRAM. The two main issues are:

1. Memristor-based RAM would currently be slower than DRAM.
2. Need to increase the read-write lifecycles that can be achieved with memristors before it can replace DRAM.


You forget the most important one:
3. Density and cost (both are related as major cost for memory is how much silicon area it takes). Also the yield is driving the cost. If I put billions of ReRAM how many of them won't work.
And another one:
4. Power: how much energy is needed for a write operation.

It's these latter two that will decide if ReRAM/memristors can replace DRAM or not. Solving 1 and 2 are just the condition to get enough investment money to start tackling 3 and 4.

My personal opinion is that ReRAM is a possible good candidate for the next non-volatile memory, but then only if the prediction of the scaling stop for NAND flash is finally becoming reality. I don't think it will replace DRAM.

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With all that said, memristor-based RAM is off topic for what is being proposed, it's the improvements to FPGAs that matter here. I hope we can get back on topic now.


Do you know the term 'analog computer' ? I think that is a direction where you want to go with your combination of memristors + FPGA. I am no expert in those as the research topic had already mostly died out before I entered university in 1990. I think the main reason they failed is that they are too hard to program. Debugging a sequential program in a low level or high level language is already hard enough. Doing it for a chip with hundreds or thousands of analog signals is I think something that the human brain hardly can grasp or tackle.

Another thing I want to mention is that there are already NVM based FPGAs ATM not based on ReRAM but based on Flash technology.

greets,
Staf.
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Offline Fats

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Re: a golden age of Amiga
« Reply #134 on: February 11, 2012, 09:07:01 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;680175
Partial reconfiguration is possible, but it's still externally driven (by software running on a CPU).


There is nothing stopping a FPGA partially reconfiguring itself. One of the roadblocks is that the FPGA manufacturers want to keep their bitstream format proprietary so you have to use their software to generate them. But I think this problem can be solved with some clever reverse engineering.

greets,
Staf.
Trust me...                                              I know what I\'m doing