A1200 RTG options

[dougal]

Some time in the future i would like to convert my A1200 to a tower with RTG.

Some questions though, firstly is it possible to have a graphics card like the Picasso IV which can display with the Picasso96 modes but at the same time display native Amiga PAL resolutions using the same monitor and output ? (Like the PIV)

What is the best way forward for towering etc.. an A1200 with a Blizzard 1260 ? It has to be the Blizzard 1260 as i just bought one and i'm expecting to receive it very soon.

[Tension]

It's not worth expanding an Amiga 1200 so much. You will end up with an unstable mess of a system. I have an A4000 with Picasso II graphics card for sale if you are interested? Also have an A3000 for sale with a built in flicker fixer so you can use any cheap PC monitor.

[fitzsteve]

If setup properly with the correct drivers and patches they can run great, I think you're just pimping your sales Tension...

I have an A1200 with Mediator PCI and it works great.  There are Zorro options too such as the Elbox Z4 Busboard that even has a PCI expansion you can add later, then you can use your PicassoIV and other Zorro Cards.

The one you may have issues with is the Micronik Z3i, I could never get that going, but again with the correct settings maybe you'll have more luck.

The best option though (IMHO) is the Mediator PCI, I know you will have to use an Indivision or AV/Scart for native modes but they really do work the best and you can even take advantage of Warp3D from a Voodoo 3 which will be faster than an Zorro Graphics Card.

Quake for example can run in high res like 1024x768 and MiniGL

You will also have access to cheap PCI sound and Network cards and if you can do a bit of hacking you can make your own SpiderII USB card (or buy one from Elbox)

I have lots of project threads over at Amibay if you need any idea's, just search for threads started by me.

All the best & good luck with your project.

Steve.

[Tension]

My experiences with over expanded A1200s have always been negative. Flaky and tempermental. Randomly crashing for no reason. Dodgy edge connectors. Turfly horrible stuff.

Also, do you complain when AmigaKit jump all over the forums peddling their overpriced wares?

[fishy_fiz]

Another option, and one that I used to use is to connect the amiga native display (ie. aga) through a tv tuner card thats plugged into a pci busboard. This will give you the best of both worlds. The far superior output of an rtg display for system frindly stuff and the os itself, plus being able to use custom chipset software (using same monitor).

Personally though Id upgrade your cpu 1st though. While there's definately benefits from going rtg, even on an '030 the cpu will hold back the amount of benefit.

[spirantho]

It should be pointed out that if you run through a TV card, the quality will be normally a bit worse, and there will always be a few frames of latency.
Your best bet is a monitor with composite video in, or even SCART in for RGB.

[utri007]

I would say that Mediator is way to go. With it you get nice speedup for 3D shooter (voodoo cards) and smooth screen scorlling with games like napalm.

It seems that there is no big difference between Zorro 2 and 3. Everything plays same speed with same RTG card and CPU, no matter is it Zorro 2 or 3.

I've 2 A1200 one with Apollo 040 32mb and anther with 060 and zorro RTG card. I'ven't have any troubles with them. Of course some, but mostly because I like to tinker OS

[spirantho]

It seems that there is no big difference between Zorro 2 and 3. Everything plays same speed with same RTG card and CPU, no matter is it Zorro 2 or 3.

That depends entirely on what you're doing with it, though.  No way I'd use a Zorro II card on my 4000 if I could possibly help it, far too slow. Heck, Z-III is too slow really these days, and Z-II is a lot slower than that.

[Tension]

So would a Picasso IV (Z3) be say, twice as fast as a Picasso II (Z2) when used in an A4k? Also, would a Picasso II benefit from running on a Zorro 3 bus at all?

[spirantho]

The Picasso II is a Z-II card, so wouldn't benefit at all from being on a Z-III bus.
The Pic IV is much faster than a Pic II, and would I imagine be noticeably faster even on a Zorro II bus.

A Pic IV will be a lot faster in a 4000, especially where there's much data flying around - the chipset is several years newer and the bandwidth is much higher on Z-III. Putting it on a Z-II bus will just starve the Cirrus Logic chip of data for most of the time.

Still better than AGA for most things, though, of course.

[fishy_fiz]

It should be pointed out that if you run through a TV card, the quality will be normally a bit worse, and there will always be a few frames of latency.
Your best bet is a monitor with composite video in, or even SCART in for RGB.

Using an RGB<->s-video adaptor gives quite decent results. RGB<->component is nigh on vga quality. As for latency, I can be fussy and never had issues with my a1200/bppc/grex system in regards to latency.

[bbond007]

To make things even more complicated, I did have a 1200T with a ZIV bus board and a CV64/3D and it was able to run 2X Z-II speed with some special option.

[Tension]

The Picasso II is a Z-II card, so wouldn't benefit at all from being on a Z-III bus.
The Pic IV is much faster than a Pic II, and would I imagine be noticeably faster even on a Zorro II bus.

A Pic IV will be a lot faster in a 4000, especially where there's much data flying around - the chipset is several years newer and the bandwidth is much higher on Z-III. Putting it on a Z-II bus will just starve the Cirrus Logic chip of data for most of the time.

Still better than AGA for most things, though, of course.

I always thought the Picasso IV was Zorro III only.

[matthey]

So would a Picasso IV (Z3) be say, twice as fast as a Picasso II (Z2) when used in an A4k? Also, would a Picasso II benefit from running on a Zorro 3 bus at all?

A Z3 P4 would be more than 2x the speed of a P2 but it has more to do with the GPU and gfx memory speed than the gfx bus speed which is faster too. Gfx speed usually has more to do with scrolling, line drawing and block filling (select SIMPLE refresh windows where possible) which benefits more from a fast GPU than bitmap and text updating which benefits more from a fast gfx bus. The Voodoo 3+ with a Mediator blows away the P4 at most operations despite the P4 having significantly faster gfx bus speeds. The Mediator is closer to Z2 bus speeds than Z3 bus speeds even on big box Amigas. Most Z3 gfx cards are not near the potential of Z3 either. The CV64 (not 3D) probably came the closest and is faster than P4 with less colors and lower resolutions. Some cards like the GVP Spectrum are so slow that they offer little if any benefit despite claiming a Z3 mode. Z3 is pretty slow even compared to PCI but the biggest bottleneck is usually going to be the 68k CPU.

The new fpga Amiga's should be worth a look as compared to a 1200+Mediator. The FPGA Arcade will have a 68060 add on board available very soon and 2D only 1 monitor RTG support with Ethernet available any time. It will probably be competitive with upgrading a stock 1200 and probably easier in a lot of ways. The Natami should be available some time this year with more expansion including full speed PCI slots and more speed but with a higher price.

[spirantho]

I always thought the Picasso IV was Zorro III only.

Nope, it even came with a little snap-out board to fit into the A2000's video slot (which isn't in-line like the Z-III machines).