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Author Topic: NEC usb hack for mediator  (Read 34656 times)

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Offline Heiroglyph

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Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #59 from previous page: November 27, 2011, 09:40:32 PM »
If that doesn't show their true colors, I don't know what does.
 

Offline Xanxi

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Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2011, 09:49:56 PM »
Well this time i can understand Elbox.
They have been kind enough to make a new device compatible with Poseidon 4.4, after Chris Hodges has been himself very kind to reveal to Amiga.org audience that the stack was not limited anymore toward Elbox, and now they think they won't ever sell again a Spider.
This is a cool and clever hack nonetheless, but perhaps we should avoid to sell them.
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Offline mongo

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Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2011, 10:08:01 PM »
Quote from: Heiroglyph;669269
If that doesn't show their true colors, I don't know what does.


Why? Because they don't like being ripped off?
 

Offline mechyTopic starter

Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2011, 12:48:49 AM »
Quote from: mongo;669273
Why? Because they don't like being ripped off?

They aren't being ripped off. i am just playing their game,except releasing the cards for a price they should cost.They simply don't like getting their own medicine back.
they have ripped amiga users off since the spider was released.
for the record i like the mediator,even if it does not do DMA it does work and is reliable.
Do you forget the years they sold spider cards with no available updated stack?
The overpriced piece of s*** excuse for a $30 chinese mediator pro tower for a4000 they sold me which cost a fortune and the rip off NEC usb card are a different story. bad business is bad business.Its things like this that drive amiga users away.
The whole point of the mediator was cheap pci cards was it not?

mech
 

Offline mongo

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Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2011, 02:59:50 AM »
Quote from: mechy;669298
They aren't being ripped off. i am just playing their game,except releasing the cards for a price they should cost.They simply don't like getting their own medicine back.


Did you pay for the driver development cost? Do you offer support? Do you handle warranty repairs? Do you have a business with employees to pay?

What do you think the price they should cost is? $20? Should Elbox be operating a charity?

Why do people complain about a $70 markup on the Spider, but have no problem with the Subway selling for $120? Or $200 for the DENEB? How much do you think they cost to make?

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they have ripped amiga users off since the spider was released.
for the record i like the mediator,even if it does not do DMA it does work and is reliable.
Do you forget the years they sold spider cards with no available updated stack?


Nobody was forcing anyone to buy them. If the card didn't work as advertised, then people should return them for a refund.

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The overpriced piece of s*** excuse for a $30 chinese mediator pro tower for a4000 they sold me which cost a fortune


What? Overpriced Amiga hardware? What an outrage!

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and the rip off NEC usb card are a different story. bad business is bad business.Its things like this that drive amiga users away.


Driving developers away doesn't attract users.

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The whole point of the mediator was cheap pci cards was it not?

mech


Feel free to write your own drivers, and charge whatever you want for them or give them away for free.
 

Offline Gulliver

Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2011, 03:05:23 AM »
Elbox has not been ethically correct since ancient times:
1.They developed a gfx card, used Picasso96 SDK & driver system and refused to pay them royalties. (All mediator gfx card drivers for Picasso96)
2.They added code that could trash your hdd without gviving the user a warning about it. (On some old spider.device)
3.They ilegally used software that was not licensed (Poseidon USB)
4.They sold many products without any usable drivers (Spider USB cards didnt have proper usb support untill now)
5.They sold products on features they never had (Mediator support for SharkPPC)

And the list could go on...
 

Offline mongo

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Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2011, 03:13:44 AM »
Quote from: Gulliver;669313
Elbox has not been ethically correct since ancient times


And?
 

Offline Gulliver

Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2011, 03:23:37 AM »
And so who is ripping off who?
 

Offline mongo

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Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2011, 03:53:38 AM »
Quote from: Gulliver;669323
And so who is ripping off who?


mechy is ripping off Elbox.

Wasn't I clear on this?

Elbox could drown puppies and it wouldn't change that fact.
 

Offline mechyTopic starter

Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2011, 04:23:04 AM »
Quote from: mongo;669310
Did you pay for the driver development cost? Do you offer support? Do you handle warranty repairs? Do you have a business with employees to pay?

Lets see here, some simple math. Elbox has been selling the overpriced spider cards for $91 for at least what?..10 years? we can safely assume they sold maybe 200 in that time.. so, 200 cards X $91 is approx $18200. hmm i'd say they made their dev cost back and then some and thats ONLY the spider.Even if its only 100 cards, that would be $9100. fair price for a driver? If anyone has trouble with my card,i will replace it free as long as i am alive.How can i do that you ask? Easy,the cost of the cards i put out start around $4-5.
Oh,and yes i have a business.

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What do you think the price they should cost is? $20? Should Elbox be operating a charity?
They wouldn't be in this market if they couldn't make money now would they. Charging $91 for a usb card thats under $10 in even small quantity is certainly not charity.

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Why do people complain about a $70 markup on the Spider, but have no problem with the Subway selling for $120? Or $200 for the DENEB? How much do you think they cost to make?
Who says we have no problem with it,the deneb probabaly was over priced(we don't know since we have no baseline on mfg cost. The subway/Deneb is custom hardware built in small quantity,not a generic off the shelf pci card which millions were made.
 Don't you understand this?. On the other hand we know on the nec card..People bought the deneb because they were all that was available with a proper updated usb stack i suspect-and they too are a damn fine card. I guess you don't mind paying a 700% markup for a spider? if not then boy, do i have a deal on a bridge for you!.. normal markup is maybe 300% at most in business but thats not a hard fast rule..



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Nobody was forcing anyone to buy them. If the card didn't work as advertised, then people should return them for a refund.
erm,yea sounds normal. Was there a point here?


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What? Overpriced Amiga hardware? What an outrage!

More drivel ignored..

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Driving developers away doesn't attract users.
I don't drive them anywhere,but always happy to if they need a lift somewhere. ;)  Developers are driven away because the amiga people are split a half a dozen ways,so they don't want to gamble on any of the 6 tangents probabaly.  

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Feel free to write your own drivers, and charge whatever you want for them or give them away for free.
Golly gee, Having your permission makes it all worth while THANKS!:rofl:

Does the elbox lawyer have anymore questions or are you just a employee there?

Oh and if you need a usb card just let me know,it will cost you 91 though, i don't want to put you in a position that might make you feel you underpaid me since you prefer the 700% markup.

Mech
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 04:26:51 AM by mechy »
 

Offline mboehmer_e3b

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Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2011, 07:45:00 AM »
Quote from: mongo;669310
Why do people complain about a $70 markup on the Spider, but have no problem with the Subway selling for $120? Or $200 for the DENEB? How much do you think they cost to make?

I would honestly propose that you start from scratch developping a completely new combination of hardware and software, like it was done with both SUBWAY and DENEB.
Take the DENEB card - do your own full development on Zorro II and III, get working support for Fast-Zorro II, implement all workarounds for broken Zorro III cards (including some Mediators, btw), fix and workaround unknown Buster bugs, write three independently used firmware images (Zorro II, Zorro III, rescue), get the chips needed for production (which is hard nowadays, as 5V technology dies slowly), handle all the production costs, the "Stiftung EAR" recycling administration (which is not for free, btw) and continue to provide support and firmware upgrades (for free, btw, compared to other companies) for years. And that's only the hardware point of view, there's still the whole software side which I didn't mention here, but which is also a huge part in the game (if not the bigger one).
How much do you think you will spend in time and money until you can deliver your first product?

Now compare that to some well-known PCI card solution. Hardware development: zero costs. You buy it in Far East for about 2USD per piece, completely assembled, completely tested, no additional work except labeling it with a nice sticker. No prototypes to be built and tested, no worrying about unknown chip features (aka bugs), no iterations on hardware. That's your hardware "development" costs per board. Period.
So all left is software driver development, which you can simply orientate on EHCI drivers on Linux, NetBSD, and other systems. You don't have to cope with "EHCI-like" structures as on the DENEB host controller chip (which is optimized for smaller CPUs), you don't have to worry about Zorro III DMA (as Mediators don't support this), and the only extra to work on is the little program to reprogram the EEPROM on the PCI card to contain the dongling bytes for your RDB-erasing driver (which, to be honest, also costs some extra time, for the encryption part of that malware feature, as well as the pseudo-random activation to hide your tracks).

EDIT: if you compare DENEB to Spider, please include into the comparision also the price for a FlashROM card (eFlash4000). This is already included in DENEB, leaving one Zorro slot free for other stuff...

BTW, without all the development efforts done in Poseidon (which first worked on SUBWAY cards) even Elbox couldn't have made any point in selling a rebranded PCI card.

Sorry for the open words, but I can't accept people talking about "costs" of projects which they never made on their own.

Michael
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 07:48:54 AM by mboehmer_e3b »
 

Offline Xanxi

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Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2011, 08:32:38 AM »
No doubt that the Spider is absolutly no match for the Deneb and that the Deneb is worth every cent it costs. Make more of them! Adapt them for the A500 with a nice case for the side slot!
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Offline stachu100

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Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2011, 10:11:10 AM »
Quote from: mboehmer_e3b;669334
Sorry for the open words, but I can't accept people talking about "costs" of projects which they never made on their own.

Michael


Dear Michael,
Besides that I'm fan of Deneb (have 2 of them) I can only second your sentence. I don't know why people having no clue about development, production and after sales support just LOVE to calculate how much hardware (or software) should cost for them.
They are even so ignorant to exclude distributor's mark-up from calculation assuming that distributors are hosting their offices, keeping employees, making advertisments and at the end selling the products as an act of charity.
No comments...
 

Offline Crumb

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Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2011, 10:21:39 AM »
@stachu100&Michael

+1

@All perhaps it would be a good moment to make Amiga software to write into eeproms in PCI boards :-)
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Offline jj

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Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2011, 03:02:35 PM »
Mechy is not ripping off Elbox.  How could he possibly be doing that ? He is selling USB carsd that are compatible with the mediator.
 
I don't think he is breaking any laws.  or is morally wrong.  Even not icluding all Elbox  horrible business practices, what moral/legal right do they have to a Monopoly on PCI USB cards.   Competition is good.
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Offline mechyTopic starter

Re: NEC usb hack for mediator
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2011, 03:55:58 PM »
@mboehmer_e3b : excellent post, you hit on the stuff my simple/quick message left out. The deneb is a incredible feat and outclasses the spider ( i know,i own both).
Its a excellent card. i also own a algor pro and it has been a great card.
Would you care to give us a rough estimate of cost on everything involved to make the deneb?

mech