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Offline bbond007

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2011, 12:17:14 AM »
fishy_fiz,

I have two potential systems I could try amithlon on. One is a  Alienware box sporting a Tyan MPX (S2466) AMD-760 motherboard and 2 Athlon MP 2400+ CPUs and some sort of Nvidia Quadro video board. I think it is a AGP based video.

The other is a dual core  (not core2) P4 3.0ghz with intel 945 based motherboard.

Which of these clunkers do you think would be best?

thanks

_nate
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2011, 12:20:58 AM »
Quote from: haywirepc;664978
Yeah seems kind of complicated getting amithlon installed. Would be alot more amithlon users around if this wasn't so involved.

Steven


Keep your eye on http://www.commodoreamiga.ir

You might be in for a nice surprise in the not so distant future. ;)
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline haywirepcTopic starter

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2011, 07:09:10 AM »
Thanks for everyone chiming in and giving me some advice. I really hope I can get this to work! Thanks especially to Fishy, but I'm still not sure I understand your instructions for installing amithlon to boot from the hard drive....
 
Two drives gives the advantage of being able to dedicated a drive to rdb
What is rdb? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by rdb?
I also don't understand whats with the small fat drives, why? And are you saying I can use an aros (or do you mean icaros) live cd and make the fat partiotions with hd toolbox? OR a win98 floppy/fdisk will work for this? I used win98se for years too long, so I definitely know how to use fdisk and windows/dos to set up drives. So I suppose that would be easier for me. I never used hdtoolbox much.
 
So I'm sure I understand, I suppose your using the fat drive just to boot to the amithlon install? Because just the isos I have (Two cd-roms) are like 600-700 megs each. So first I setup the fat partition first, then boot
with the amithlon cd and use hdtoolbox for format/partition the rest of the
drive? What filesystem should I use for this?(I'm pretty sure I will just be using one hard drive) So I set up the fat drive, boot to amithlon cd, setup the rest of the hardrive as the rest of the drive being the amithlonvirtualdisk partition...Install amiga os3.9 with the amigaos installer onto the amithlon partition,reboot setup autoexec.bat on fat drive...
 
Question, I don't think I've ever used loadlin on any dos/windows pc before, what is that? It just runs the kernelscript for amithlon? And do I have to modify the kernal script so it knows where the amithlon partition is or is named or what? Also, how to I make sure I apply the boot tag to the amigaos partition, is that done in hdtoolbox and do I need a seperate partition for amigaos3.9 and amithlon or can't I just put them both on the amithlon partition, which will be the entire drive except for the fat partition in my case.
 
Also, on the fat partitions, it has to be made a bootable partition and boot to lets say windows98 in my case, (format c:/s/v/u) ?
 
Also, am I right in that the machine will boot dos first then boot to the
amithlon install? Argh, my head hurts. There is something to be said for AROS. I wish there were a simpler way to install this.
 
Sorry this is a bit confusing and I want to try and make sure I understand.
New network card should be here this week and I'm going to build the computer first and then give the full installation a try.
 
Thanks for trying to explain this to me Fishy, I think I understand, but its a bit perplexing. I really hope I can get this to work!
 
Steven
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2011, 01:53:17 PM »
For now, just boot this floppy with the Amithlon disc in the CDROM drive and choose the automatic installer.

http://jope.fi/amithlon/ide.zip
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2011, 03:11:46 PM »
@bbond007

By the sounds of it both would be roughly on par in terms of end results, so I guess just use whichever one gives you less grief  :)

The p4 (from an amithlon perspective) might be fractionally faster (although I think maybe an athlon mp might have a larger cache than a normal xp cpu? (which helps with emulation)), but also p45 chipsets tend to work quite well.

Although in the early years amithlon was a better match for amd hardware intel support has probably surpassed it.
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline bbond007

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2011, 03:28:02 PM »
Quote from: fishy_fiz;665077
@bbond007

By the sounds of it both would be roughly on par in terms of end results, so I guess just use whichever one gives you less grief  :)

The p4 (from an amithlon perspective) might be fractionally faster (although I think maybe an athlon mp might have a larger cache than a normal xp cpu? (which helps with emulation)), but also p45 chipsets tend to work quite well.

Although in the early years amithlon was a better match for amd hardware intel support has probably surpassed it.


The Alienware case is kinda cool too. Think I should pull the 2ND CPU?

What is the best supported video card?

thanks, _nate
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2011, 03:53:35 PM »
@Haywirepc

**updated enough for now, will get back to it later**

Sorry, I was in a little rush when I wrote the initial reply about installing amithlon and I probably didnt explain things too well.  

I'll write this stuff in detail, both in the form of "how" and also "why". It's actually not as complicated as it might sound and once a person goes through it, it all makes sense, but as with anything can sound a bit daunting without hands-ons use.

Maybe this post could be pointed to in the future or copied and pasted elsewhere?

Anyway, it goes a little something like:

Well firstly amithlon is a little different to most emulators. To simplify things a little its more a way to run amiga os3.x on pc hardware rather than something like uae which emulates an entire amiga utilising many host os features.

Harddrives:
Amiga OS uses rdb. Both a "real" amiga and a harddisk image in winuae do and so does amithlon. In short its what amiga drives use. Unfortunately pcs dont cant boot from this, but instead use mbr. Both cannot co-exist in "normal" circumstances.

Because of this a mbr must be used to actually boot an os. This is why a fat partition needs to be created. To copy the bootloader, etc. to. From there the amiga os drive is "initiated". This (the amiga drive) can be a physical drive or an amithlonvirtualdisk "partition" (or other storage media if a person has a mind to). If you have more than 1 physical hardrive and its practical installing the bootloader to the non AmigaOS drive has an advantage or two, but really way either is fine.
Both methods have pros and cons. A dedicated amigaos only/rdb disk can be swapped back and forward between an amiga and winuae more easily, but using a small fat partition on the same drive doesnt rely on external media, or another harddrive to boot.

Right now Im just using 1 drive, but I have does it other ways too.

Installing to harddrive:
Now to setup with 1 drive I first created a "boot" partition. I just used a win98boot disk, used fdisk, created a 50meg partition and did a system format on that partition (format c:/s). A FreeDos cd should also be fine.

Once that was done I copied the entire isolinux directory from the amithlon cd. This was done by simply used "md c:\isolinux", then going into the isolinux directory on the cd and doing a "copy *.* c:\isolinux".

Ok then, amithlon files copied across and we're nearly ready to boot however we've not yet set up a harddrive for amiga os yet. There's plenty of ways to do this, but personally I like to have an aros nightly disc on hand as it can be handy for dealing with amiga os harddrives. To set up the amiga drive with aros load up aros hdtoolbox and create a new partition with type amithlonvirtualhardisk (type76 I believe). Save the changes and youre good to go.

Reboot the computer, but this time with the amithlon cd and let it boot into the minimal amiga os setup it provides. Once youve done that load up hdtoolbox. Select your harddrive and you should see the "harddisk" we created with aros hdtoolbox. You'll see both the actual physical harddrive and the virtual disk we created here. Make sure you dont select the physical disk or you'll undo the work we already did. Select and partition to your liking. Make sure to set the partition you want to boot with (check the boot box).

Once youve done that format the unitialized partitions that appear on the desktop (a quick format will suffice). Youre then ready to install amiga os, which is in the amigaos3.9 directory on the amithlon cd.

Remove the cd and do a ctrl+amiga+amiga and AmigaOS3.9 should boot from harddrive.

We're not quite done yet though. If you recall we booted from cd here, and there's just one more step before it'll boot from harddrive. Boot back to your fat dos/freedos partition and create an autoexec.bat file. This just needs to contain "cd c:\isolinux" and one the next line, "loadlin @amithlon".

Autoexec.bat I guess is something like amiga oses startup sequence and the above simply tells the computer to change to the bootloader directory (isolinux) and use it with the script named "amithlon" (which selects kernel and applies a few properties).

All being right in the world and you should be good to go.

Common problems at this point:

Problem: I only get a 640x480x8bit screenmode.

Why: One fo 2 things. Youve either not installed the Amithlon updates or your hardware isnt supported by the kernel youre using. No OS will work without the drivers setup. Why should Amithlon/OS3.9 be different?
Solution: Install the amithlonupdate archive found on aminet. If this doesnt fix things update the kernel (see Updating Kernel section(to be added shortly)).

Problem: Screen image is a garbled mess. Somethings happening, but I cant see what.

Why. This is usually just the kickstart3.1 screen. The movement you see is the disc inserting. It usually occurs either when the OS isnt yet installed, not boot partition is selected for amigaos, or hardware wasnt initialised properly, which goes back to a problem with your "boot" partition. Usuaully a kernel or script problem in this case.
Solution: Either install AmigaOS, set the boot tab on the partition you want to boot from, or double check everything in your fat "boot" partition".

Problem: Screen image is garbled, but it looks like the image is AmigaOS in some form (very grey with black lines).

Why: most common cause of this is that an Amiga drive has been partitioned, and a boot tab selected, but no OS installed.
Solution: hold both mouse buttons down and boot from hdh0: then unselect boot tab, install amigaos, and reselect boot tab. If no hdh0: is available then an AROS live booting disc + aros hdtoolbox can be used to unselect the boot tab on the amiga drive.

Updating The Kernel:

Seeing as the Amithlon kernel is located on a fat partition we need to access this somehow. If a person has installed the Amithlonupdate archive they can simply bring up a shell and type "setconfig dosmount "" and reboot. This will mount the fat partition on the Workbench. Of course you dont need to do it through amigaos, it all depends on how your computer is setup. DOS, Windows, whatever, its all fine. Once you have access to your isolinux directory on the fat partition simply copy the kernel your updating over and we're halfway there. Once that's done you need to edit the files called "amithlon", which is simply a script that decides the kernel and a few properties.

Change it so it reads:
kernel4 init=/linuxrc console_level=0 root=/dev/ram0 initrd=smallird.gz vga=769 ramdisk_size+2410 leavepages=5400

Its actually pretty close to how it originally is. Ive simply changed the 1st word (the kernel filename) and added a little to ramdisk_size and leavepages.
Either back-up original script under a different name 1st or save this changed script under a different name though, if only incase of typos. If you change the new scripts name though make sure you change you autoexec.bat file to make loadlin use the new script. At the moment it should be loadlin @amithlon.


n.b. Still in process of updating........
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 10:20:16 AM by fishy_fiz »
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2011, 04:07:14 PM »
@bbond007

Yeah may as well remove the 2nd cpu I guess as it wont be used.

As for video card I guess it depends on what a person wants from it. A gf5950 is the fastest supported card with full 2d acceleration, but matrox card can have dual monitor display. Personally Ive taken a liking to my Matrox g550. Both outputs work and it seems a very flexible card for making custom p96 screenmodes.
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline haywirepcTopic starter

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2011, 07:13:18 AM »
Sorry this message will be so winded, but I wanted to be sure I explain whats wrong, what I tried to fix my problems and so on.
 
Today my realtek 8029 network card arrived, so I put together the system I intended for amithlon testing. It is an amd3000 sempro 1800mhz compaq machine with 1 gig of ram. In installed the sb128 pci and a nvidia agp geoforce4 mx4 video card with 64 megs of ram in in. I disabled the onboard sound and onboard lan in the bios.
 
When I turn on the machine I see the compaq splash screen, and I can then edit the bios. I have the machine set to boot from cd first. When I let it boot (using the amithlonv1.3 part 1 ISO on cd)  i get the  amithlon selection screen where you can select the boot you want. When I select VGA, Vesa, or matrox I get the gfxcard reset message then I get a screen with hmmm... like a screen which looks like the horizontal hold is off or something, wavy lines like the monitor can't handle something. I am using a very old crt 20 inch monitor. I tried also using a 15 inch led lcd and I get the same wavy lines. I also tried a 17 inch lcd and a 15 inch crt monitor, on all of them I get the same wavy lines after boot.
 
On the garbled bad/screen
Just to check, I tried standard vga, same thing, force vesa, same thing, matrox, same thing, nvidia vga same thing. When I try nvidia tft, I get invalid sync on all 3 or 4 monitors I tried it on. The 20 inch crt can do 1600x1200 on windows or linux, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't work?
 
When I boot it with the  1.3 rescue option, it boots to os3.x low res desktop.  When I use 3.10 rescue option, again it boots to workbench screen at low res. When I use 4b rescue option, it seems to have the screen problems again. When I use 4b+sata I get the same garbled screen where it looks like horizontal or verical hold is screwed up. Using the 1.3 or 3.10 rescue option, I do get a workbench screen, but if I try and edit the screen prefs it gives me the same wavy lines/bad screen.
 
I'm not sure what is causing this, I would think a geoforce 4mx with 64 megs of ram is supported, I bought this video card specifically because I was told it worked with amithlon. Just a side question, but does anyone know if that card works with AROS, or linux/compiz? I suppose if it won't work for amithlon and I'm forced to buy another video card for amithlon I can use it for linux or aros.
 
Does anyone have any idea what is causing this screen problem? Booting to the rescue thing, in screen prefs it only allows 640x480, which kind of sucks. Also, I don't know if maybe it will work if I do the complete install? but I don't want to do all this to find out the video card won't work and have to do all that again. Installing amithlon to hard disk appears to quite quite alot more involved than aros or linux/haiku or any other alternative os that I have tried. I tried two other nvida cards I have around. One is a newer nvidia card with 512 megs ram and two heads. I don't have a newer to older vga adapter but I think on that card it was assuming the monitor was on the bigger newer monitor connection and its not, it was connected to the head with the older vga connection. After boot, I get a blank screen. I also tried another nvida card I had around that has an older vga connection, not sure what the card has but works in linux/compiz. On that card I get the same wavy lines after boot when selecting nvidia vga. When selecting nvidia tft I get a blank screen/nothing. With that card selecting vesa or vga, and I get the wavy lines.
 
I'm not sure what is causing the video problems. I also tried selecting pci and agp in bios settings with the same results on all video cards/monitors.
To be honest, I think a couple years ago I had similar problems just like this and promptly gave up on amithlon after trying it on like 4 or 5 different computers. I'd really like to get this working but I have no idea why the video would not be working at more than 640x480 in the rescue option. Its really frustrating especially when I bought hardware right off the supported list.
 
For testing purposes, I loaded the latest puppy linux iso on a cdrom and tried booting that with both the old nvidia card I have, and the geoforce 4mx. Sound, video, and network all work fine in puppy linux, and video wise, I can set the screen to 1600x1200 on the big crt monitor I intended to use for this amithlon machine.
 
I'm willing to keep trying, but does anyone know if the geoforce mx4 works with AROS? If I can't get this going, this box will become an AROS box. I have a soundblaster emu10k, and I think the realtek 8029 network card works with AROS, but I'm not sure. Anyone know if the realtek 8029 works with AROS?
 
I haven't given up yet, but I don't know what else to try. Any ideas?
 
I'm about out of hair pulling for today, I can try some new things tomorrow I suppose.
 
Steven
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2011, 07:57:31 AM »
Ah, ok. "Normal" Amithlon isnt like that. Sounds like these are unofficial (and to be brutally honest it sounds cumbersome).

The 640x480x8bit screenmode with the "rescue" disk sounds like its simly using vesa modes, and without the amithlon update.

I'll update my previous lengthy explanation and fill in gaps (and correct a few typos that may potentially confuse things)......

edit: I'll mark the top of that post as "updated" or similar so people know when its done (might take a while is all and its quite likely some people will read it between now and then).
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 08:04:52 AM by fishy_fiz »
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline XDelusion

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2011, 08:03:00 AM »
I tried my geoforce4 mx400...

Was stuck in Vesa.

Ordered this, and the proper options showed up as they should (with the kernel 4 and drivers).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/310350335883?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
Earth has a lot of things other folks might want... like the whole planet. And maybe these folks would like a few changes made, like more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and room for their way of life. - William S. Burroughs
 

Offline haywirepcTopic starter

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2011, 08:25:45 AM »
If the fx5200 will work fine, I'm fine with buying it... I think AROS also supports that video card if I'm not mistaken. Ideally, I'd like to have video/network and sound that both amithlon and aros fully support, so I can dual boot AROS and Amithlon...
 
And if someone has a link to a better amithlon ISO file that I should be using, instad of the ISO's I got from another amithlon thread here on amiga.org, I'd sincerely appreciate it....
 
Steven
 

Offline haywirepcTopic starter

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2011, 08:49:43 AM »
I checked the AROS hardware compatibility info on AROS.ORG realtek 8029 is fully supported on AROS, and I think the geoforce 4 is but no open gl...?

The fx5200 is supported on AROS, but I think that IS the older agp NVDIA card I already have and tried with amithlon, (Looks very similar to the fx5200's with 128 megs of ram I saw on ebay, it has just a vga out and svideo out.

I'd be happy to buy an fx5200 if it is sure it to work, but I don't have a spare monitor that uses the newer monitor connection so I'd prefer to avoid a dual head card that has both newer and older style monitor connections because I think the older vga connection on the dual head cards is the second monitor and amithlon and AROS as I recall don't figure out like okay the only monitor is plugged into the older VGA port... And you just get a blank screen. I wish I had an adapter for newer to older style monitor plug so I can see if this newer nvidia dual head card I have is working....

Steven
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2011, 09:09:34 AM »
Sorry, Ive not updated the earlier post yet. Real life got in the way. I'll do it shortly.
As for the gf 5200 I can only say "possibly" as to whether or not it'll work. Some gf 5xxx series cards work, some dont. Ive had a 5200 that worked and 1 that didnt. A gf pcx 5300 didnt (essentially gf5200 on pci express interface). A gf5500 did a, gf5700 didnt, a gf5700 ulta did. Theyre all Ive tried, but Ive heard similar hit and miss stories from other who have used gf5 cards.
From what Ive seen and heard 5200 and 5500 are the 2 that seem to have the highest success rate.
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline haywirepcTopic starter

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2011, 09:29:07 AM »
I checked and the nvidia older card I tried IS a nvidia 5200 with 128 megs of ram. It gives the same garbled screen on amithlon that the others do.
 
I think the newer nvidia card I have here that i tried IS an fx5500 dual head with 512 megs ram, and it too does not work right, but I suspect it may be sending the video to the newer monitor connection and I don't have a spare monitor with a newer connection. I wish I had an adapter so I could tell for sure. It would be a huge pain in my ass to try and test that on my main monitor.

EDIT - The newer one,Its actually an fx 6200 dual head nvidia card with 512 megs.

So thats an fx6200 card, an fx5200 card with 128 megs ram, and a geoforce4 with64 megs of ram, none working with amithlon, but all seem fine with linux.

I may just give up and turn this box into a spare aros box.

Amithlon sounds fun, but I already have a pc running winuae that is fine for most things and works great, with almost anything I use it for.
 
Steven
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 09:40:52 AM by haywirepc »
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Help me build an amithlon machine? Please?
« Reply #29 from previous page: October 27, 2011, 09:40:25 AM »
The thing is though Amithlon is actually quite simple once you understand it. Takes about 10 minutes in total to get it installed, including installing AmigaOS.
 The "garbled screen" is just the normal "insert disc" kickstart3.1 screen. It often goes wonky. Only shows up when things arent setup right and it being garbled means nothing in regards to whether the gfx card is supported or not.
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.