AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4 News

[Daedalus]

Well, on MorphOS, ISO's are perfectly clickable, no hazzle! :p

*shrug* Same on OS4.

IMHO there is a certain "beauty", or "cleanliness" if you like, of releasing the OS as a complete ISO that contains everything needed, hence every new release becomes like a new lowest common denominator, increasing the predictability, and making it easy to do a clean install of any version if you want to. Releasing a series of incomplete/partial patches that each builds on the previous one, isn't really "kosher" in my view. I can understand why this is done on Windows, where sizes counts in gigabytes, but on Amiga? Since the bigger size of an ISO is the only rational argument *against* ISO-style releases I can see, it obviously comes down to a matter of taste of the OS4 devs. They simply don't like ISO's. Or maybe Hyperion don't want to distribute complete releases in any other shape and form than a physical CD with a boing-ball printed on it (isn't that one of the most important parts of their product after all - the boing ball (TM)? ). I don't know. But even if you "have to" burn a CD (and given the frequency of OS4 releases - how much of an effort can this really be for a user? It's not a daily, not a monthly, heck, mostly it isn't even a *yearly* chore!), this "one time" effort must surely have a lot of benefits as soon as you decide to do a clean reinstall with the latest version, in comparison to first install the latest ISO, then one update, then another, then a third, etc.

Well, it looks like it just comes down to your opinion then, fair enough. It doesn't make ISO distribution a better system, you just prefer it. Perhaps it would be good to make that distinction more clearly in future. As you point out below, Hyperion did release an ISO for one of the updates which did require a full install, so it's not to do with physical CDs. I do think download size is a reasonable argument - I'd prefer a 10-minute download to a 15-minute download when the end result to me is the same, and purely as a matter of opinion, I think only providing the updated components in an archive is a much more elegant solution than providing an ISO.

I can see many voices in favor of an ISO on various forums, so I'm getting quite sure they will give in and finally release their OS as an ISO this time; it was many revisions ago they did this (was it OS4.1.1?). And given that OS4.1.4 will (supposedly) be the last revision in the OS4.1.x branch, I think it makes sense to "wrap it up" in a nice and clean ISO that marks the end of the "OS4.1.x era", before "OS4.2.x" enters the scene with all its groundbreaking, mythical improvements that will change the Amiga paradigm forever...

And you wonder why people accuse you of not being positive when it comes to OS4? I know it's only your opinion, but using language like 'groundbreaking' and 'mythical' makes you come across as quite sarcastic and dismissive. Some might even consider it trolling, even if you did put a smiley face on the end.

[takemehomegrandma]

Just for a laugh I just timed my lowly Sam440ep 600MHz with u3.
It took 17 seconds from OS4.1 logo to loaded desktop, and that included a few seconds for DHCP look-up.

(Just to relate to "Duce's" post above): Since I haven't seen that myself, should I discard that as "hearsay" and "talking head nonsense"? :p

Look, I know that there are many users having had no problems whatsoever with the OS4.1.3 upgrade, never claimed otherwise, but the fact is that *never* had the amount of people *having* problems been *this high* with an OS4 release. And just because your machine boots in 17 seconds doesn't mean that "danwood's" does! Or do you call him (and everyone else having problems with OS4.1.3) *liars* based on *your* experience?

This is getting "funnier" by the minute...

Just because some people installed software that did things it shouldn't does NOT mean the OS is "fundamentally flawed".

Oh, tell me you aren't "doing a ssolie" here - blaming users and blaming applications! AFAIK danwood, and everyone else, simply followed the provided upgrade instructions (it *was meant* to be an upgrade, not a clean install only). He simply went from OS4.1.2 (where things worked) to OS4.1.3, everything else "Ceteris Paribus", and he got this effect.

kas1e (in the same thread) had a similar experience (but with different numbers): On a *clean, freshly installed* OS4.1.3 Peg2 system, it boots in 38 seconds, 50% slower than MorphOS on the very same system.

The thing is, OS4.1.2 was only 30% slower.

Huh?

[Daedalus]

OS4.1.3 boots multiple times slower than OS4.1.2, there are no rational reasons to explain this vast speed decrease other than something must be borked.

Interesting, first time I've heard of that. You present it as a fact though, like it's normal behaviour, when you haven't even tried it out yourself. You really should qualify that with "some users have found" or something, or else some people might think you're trolling again. I noticed no difference in boot times when I updated my machine, and if I had, I'd try to see if it's a funky 3rd party app or network setup that's causing the stall, and report my findings, possibly helping out others with the same issue. You know, generally being constructive and helpful. Something you should try sometime.

[Daedalus]

LOl! Half this thread is blocked on my ignore list. takmehomegradma must be at it again......

Indeed...

Now I remember why I don't check this site very often anymore.

Chris

Yep, I wonder why I ever bother...

[takemehomegrandma]

Well, it looks like it just comes down to your opinion then, fair enough. It doesn't make ISO distribution a better system, you just prefer it.

No, most rational, technical arguments speaks in favor of ISO-style distributions. Them tending to be bigger thus taking slightly longer to download is really the only negative aspect to it. Nothing subjective about it, we have been over this before, in many threads in the past.

And you wonder why people accuse you of not being positive when it comes to OS4? I know it's only your opinion, but using language like 'groundbreaking' and 'mythical' makes you come across as quite sarcastic and dismissive. Some might even consider it trolling, even if you did put a smiley face on the end.

Well, after the OS4.1.4 release they will do a major version bump to OS4.2.x, which usually means major changes, not minor. This OS generation is proclaimed to be the one who will make full use of the new features in "AmigaOne X1000" hardware, and some planned/promised features (maybe not in OS4.2.0, but further down the line) are well known, and indeed "groundbreaking", and "mythical" isn't really a bad word in the context either. For example I must say that I very much look forward to see how ssolie &co will solve *true SMP*, *true MP*, etc without breaking Amiga compatibility, as well as seeing all the cool stuff they have planned for "Xena"!

[takemehomegrandma]

Interesting, first time I've heard of that. You present it as a fact though, like it's normal behaviour, when you haven't even tried it out yourself. You really should qualify that with "some users have found" or something, or else some people might think you're trolling again.

No, *I am not* presenting *anything* as fact, I am merely relaying what *others* say, and what you in fact have just said here, in practice, is that kas1e and danwood are lying/trolling when they say that they found OS4.1.3 to boot slower than OS4.1.2 on their machines! Wow!

It's funny how relaying "hearsay" from respected OS4 users about OS4.1.3 being flawless is considered an absolute truth and fact, while at the same time relaying "hearsay" from other respected OS4 users about *problems* with OS4.1.3 is "trolling"! :rolleyes:

"Normal behavior" you say, well, "Normal behavior" is defined by an aggregation of the population. It's a well established fact that OS4.1.3 worked fine for some users, and it didn't work fine at all for others! This "unevenness" is the definition of bad quality, and the quality threshold for what quality Hyperion could accept as "normal OS4 behavior" *obviously* wasn't met in OS4.1.3, hence they have announced that they (despite earlier plans that OS4.2.0 would be the next release) have now *rather quickly* announced an OS4.1.4 release as well, in order to fix the outstanding issues reported to their bug tracker. Quality threshold wasn't met, they decide to fix it. Simple really. It's getting funnier and funnier that some people here so persistently and furiously denies this! :lol:

[spirantho]

If you have an OS which works perfectly until you install a piece of software that doesn't obey guidelines, then yes, I'll blame the software and not the OS. If that makes me like ssolie then that's just fine.

So if I write an OS, and provide guidelines to developers, and then someone writes software that ignores those guidelines, and it breaks a future update - is that my fault or theirs?

[HotRod]

If you have an OS which works perfectly until you install a piece of software that doesn't obey guidelines, then yes, I'll blame the software and not the OS. If that makes me like ssolie then that's just fine.

So if I write an OS, and provide guidelines to developers, and then someone writes software that ignores those guidelines, and it breaks a future update - is that my fault or theirs?

This is very true but it became too much when a user had issues with IBrowse IIRC that has worked since forever and still does. Then it must be something else. Also it isn't always very nice to just say "it isn't our software so not our problem". The issue could be something MUI related for example so in that case is it not an issue that should be handled by the OS developers? At least try to help.

If it is some nasty tool from 1991 then I agree though.

[spirantho]

Hyperion have been helpful though - they created a forum specially, and they're keeping us informed about update 4. Most of the problems people experienced have been solved - I believe mostly it was down to rogue MUI libs in LIBS: - which should NEVER be the case. Plus just because IBrowse didn't break it before doesn't mean it never will, OS 4 has undergone so many changes under the hood it's not surprising some new problems arise.

I don't think anyone is saying OS4 is perfect, but many of the accusations leveled against in this thread just aren't true or fair on Hyperion, and it's that that I have a problem with.

[Duce]

First I've heard of the latest update being slow to boot.  From BIOS screen to fully usable Workbench screen is 5 seconds for me (SATA SSD drive), faster than the previous versions under exact same hardware..

[nicholas]

If I buy OS4.1 today, will 4.2 be a free upgrade (Like MOS 2.8 to 3.0 will be) or will I have to shell out another 150 notes to get it?

Anyone know?

[spirantho]

I don't think anyone knows, but I imagine you'd have to pay up again I'm afraid.

The best place to ask isn't here but on the Hyperion forums themselves, they'll know. It does make sense to offer a free upgrade if you buy after a particular date, I think.

[jorkany]

If you have an OS which works perfectly until you install a piece of software that doesn't obey guidelines, then yes, I'll blame the software and not the OS. If that makes me like ssolie then that's just fine.

So if I write an OS, and provide guidelines to developers, and then someone writes software that ignores those guidelines, and it breaks a future update - is that my fault or theirs?

Interesting then that Update 4 is announced within a couple months of Update 3.
It's no secret that this is a hotfix.

I don't think anyone is saying OS4 is perfect, but many of the accusations leveled against in this thread just aren't true or fair on Hyperion, and it's that that I have a problem with.

Many people taking their head out of the sand have a problem with this kind of attitude (3rd post and first official response to Update 3 issue):
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=271#p3491

But Update 4 will make it all better, I'm sure. Meantime I'm looking forward to seeing SMP demonstrated along with the specialty hardware Xorro and Xena at AmiWest this year!


.

[Duce]

I don't think anyone knows, but I imagine you'd have to pay up again I'm afraid.

The best place to ask isn't here but on the Hyperion forums themselves, they'll know. It does make sense to offer a free upgrade if you buy after a particular date, I think.

I am not paying jack all for any 4.2 upgrade.  I'd sell the SAM and OS4 first.  I've been the FIRST guy to defend OS4 lately, but no.  Just no.

I love the thing and really enjoy it, but honestly the price for the OS was $160 in my currency.  My last OEM Win 7 64 DVD cost me less than that.
OS X Lion was $30.  In fact I bought W7 64 bit Ultimate full version OEM and OS X Lion for a similar price total.  

Both Windows and OS X show notable progress, where as OS 4.1uX updates are just fixes.  4.2 won't make my SAM 440 do backflips - it's a hobbyist machine I have stuffed in the corner that runs an old school telnet BBS that barely anyone calls.  These are not mission critical machines, and I won't be milked like a cow for upgrade fees, lol.

The difference from 4.1 to 4.2 will not be like going from XP to Win 7.

[nicholas]

I don't think anyone knows, but I imagine you'd have to pay up again I'm afraid.

The best place to ask isn't here but on the Hyperion forums themselves, they'll know. It does make sense to offer a free upgrade if you buy after a particular date, I think.

Thanks, I will ask over there. A free upgrade would be nice as i'm only considering buying OS4 to develop for it.

[spirantho]

I think 4.2 isn't going to be so necessary as 4.1 was. I could be wrong (I'm not involved with Hyperion) but I think 4.2's main improvement will be SMP support, which of course is of no use to anyone other than X1000 owners.

Let's not forget though that charging for hotfixes is hardly new - all the OSes do it. Look at Windows for example. Win 95 didn't work on AMD K6-2 chips, so you had to fork out for '98. Then when you did, you found that '98 had completely broken USB, and you had to fork out again for Win 98 OSR2.

If you don't need the upgrade, then don't upgrade, I think is the message here.

For what it's worth I completely empathise. I have 4.0 on my Classic, 4.1 on my A1 and 4.1 on my Sam440ep - if I were to upgrade them all I'd be looking at close to £300, which is much more than I can afford!

I suggest using your OS until you find that you need the upgrade, then upgrade. Just because they're bringing out a new version doesn't mean you need to buy it (though I know the temptation is very strong!).

@jorkany

No-one said update 3 was perfect, but in no way was it as bad as it was being accused of.