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Offline Hattig

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2011, 09:12:12 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;662738
No choice  G5 CPU into slim Powerbook casing was never going to happen so....x86 migration begun.


Yup, it was about the long term roadmaps.

And looking now at x86 versus PowerPC, I think that we can see it was the best move. Neither IBM or Freescale wanted to design and make desktop-class PowerPC processors and infrastructure, instead moving to console, server and embedded.

I think the future will be interesting for Apple - will they switch to ARM within a decade, once ARM has the features they need for their consumer devices?
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #60 on: October 06, 2011, 09:16:35 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;662743
We're probably getting off-topic here, but I agree with Digiman. It's true that Macs used off-the-shelf parts before the switch (though that goes all the way back to the original 128K Macintosh, so I don't see it as any kind of "betrayal" of unstated principles,) but the CPU is rather a key component of a computer, and for the first two incarnations, the Mac had a CPU that was as nice as anything else about the computer, inside or out.


Was a key component, back when operating systems and applications used large amounts of assembler. Now it's a commodity component like anything else, you use the CPU that makes the most sense for the hardware you are building, not because it is a particular family; the software that will run on it can always be recompiled for your target.

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Yes, there were probably solid business reasons for the switch,


Yes, that being that Motorola then IBM could not compete in either performance or cost with the relentless advances being made over on the intel side. Intel macs didn't just appear; intel builds of OSX are as old as their PPC counterparts, just kept under wraps for several years. Apple could see the writing on the wall for desktop PPC way back then and wanted to make sure they had a clean exit strategy. Apple stuck with PPC for as long as it was feasible and not a second longer. If anything, given hindsight, I am a bit surprised they never jumped sooner, considering they already had the OS ready.

It's no surprise either that they made the move to ARM for portable devices so easily too - they obviously put a fair bit of effort into making sure that OSX was platform-independent. Their OS team could probably compile it for MIPS if they were bored enough. Again, the family of CPU doesn't really matter these days - it's whatever is best for the device you are building.

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but the fact remains that x86 is just plain ugly, and the only reason it's faster is because of all the revenue that can be poured back into R&D on it.


It's 2011, not 1992. I used to hate x86 too. That's all it really was, just hate for the sake of it. The truth is that like it or not, the "x86" has risen above every reasonable technical criticism that's ever been levelled against it. First it was too slow and would never survive the RISC revolution. Which it did, just fine. Turned out that all the main architectural features of RISC don't actually require a reduced instruction set in order to implement. Then it was all "it will never survive the 64-bit revolution". Erm no, if anything, it's the most popular 64-bit platform in existence, likewise the most popular multi-core platform. Then it was "too power hungry" but again, in performance per watt it's holding it's own just fine, certainly a lot better than the last PPCs that saw desktop use. Of course, ARM are still better at this game, and that's why they are used so extensively for mobile devices. However, if an x86 part with superior performance per watt and cost appeared, most hardware vendors wouldn't care about switching because, again, today CPUs are just another system component and the system software can be recompiled. The fact that for most mobile devices the rest of the software base tends to be Java based should give you some idea just how little people care about the real CPU these days.

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You can get a more powerful machine for cheaper with x86, yes,


Which is what the vast majority of consumers want and hence what any business that wants market share will aim for.

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but for those of us whose horsepower needs are still around what a high-end G4 or a G5 can provide, it's still nice to know that there are computers that are actually nice under the hood.


You should probably look up current x64 designs rather than thinking back to your 386-era days. There's very little not to like about them. They are clean, rational and well thought out designs. The fact that they can still run code designed for 386 era devices whilst being so radically different is a testament to how well engineered they really are.

So, ugly? Hardly.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #61 on: October 06, 2011, 09:23:17 PM »
Quote from: B00tDisk;662730
It was lulzworthy after spending a decade bashing Intel to see them whip around and give big gay hugs to x86 processors, but yeah, the Intel transition was without a doubt their shrewdest technological move.


Yeah. I was watching the keynote presentation in which the intel news was finally dropped. At the same time, they were still advertising dual G5 machines on their website with the usual litany of why PPC over x86 stuff. I had to chuckle at that.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #62 on: October 06, 2011, 09:26:37 PM »
Back on topic, his showmanship certainly improved over the years but nobody can deny his enthusiasm for technology, even at the start.

Here, Steve demonstrates the original OSX
[youtube]j02b8Fuz73A[/youtube]

:)
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Offline B00tDisk

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #63 on: October 06, 2011, 09:36:43 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;662750
Back on topic, his showmanship certainly improved over the years but nobody can deny his enthusiasm for technology, even at the start.

Here, Steve demonstrates the original OSX

:)


Love this demo.  Not quite as much as Doug Englebart's "Killer Demo" from 1969, but it is neat.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #64 on: October 06, 2011, 09:48:11 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;662748
Was a key component, back when operating systems and applications used large amounts of assembler. Now it's a commodity component like anything else, you use the CPU that makes the most sense for the hardware you are building, not because it is a particular family; the software that will run on it can always be recompiled for your target.
You say that like it somehow makes an ugly architecture un-ugly. Yes, compilers can make any high-level language essentially usable on any Turing-complete architecture with sufficient memory. That's beside the point. Kludgey is still kludgey and elegant is still elegant, whether or not most people care about it. Some of us still like to use assembler, if only for hobby purposes. Some of us still care about these things.

Besides, architectures do still make a difference today, if less so than in the past - or weren't you paying attention when Android x86 became a full-fledged project rather than a simple cross-compile, because the original was heavily optimized for ARM?

Quote
It's 2011, not 1992. I used to hate x86 too. That's all it really was, just hate for the sake of it. The truth is that like it or not, the "x86" has risen above every reasonable technical criticism that's ever been levelled against it. First it was too slow and would never survive the RISC revolution. Which it did, just fine. Turned out that all the main architectural features of RISC don't actually require a reduced instruction set in order to implement. Then it was all "it will never survive the 64-bit revolution". Erm no, if anything, it's the most popular 64-bit platform in existence, likewise the most popular multi-core platform.
I don't give a damn about historical turf wars. I've looked at the architecture, both in its original "some day I'll be a real 32-bit chip!" incarnation and in its later forms, and I just plain don't care for it. Too few registers and an almost-but-not-quite orthogonal approach to using them that's never entirely disappeared, for one thing. (At least they seem to have finally ditched the last vestiges of memory segmentation in x64.)

It's not the "worst CPU evar!!!1," but Lord, it's not good. And the fact that the hurdles you list have been overcome attests to nothing more than that there's been a whole lot of time and money from a whole lot of different parties invested in making sure that it keeps up with newer, better-designed architectures - of course it's kept up, the freaking RCA 1802 could've become a modern desktop workhorse with those kind of resources.

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Which is what the vast majority of consumers want and hence what any business that wants market share will aim for.
Aaand when did we start judging quality by commercial success? If we judged movies by their box-office, Transformers 2 would be a masterpiece.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 09:50:33 PM by commodorejohn »
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #65 on: October 06, 2011, 10:17:00 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;662753
You say that like it somehow makes an ugly architecture un-ugly. Yes, compilers can make any high-level language essentially usable on any Turing-complete architecture with sufficient memory. That's beside the point. Kludgey is still kludgey and elegant is still elegant, whether or not most people care about it. Some of us still like to use assembler, if only for hobby purposes. Some of us still care about these things.


No, I say it as if it makes an architecture irrelevant. Which it does. However, since you seem to be persisting in this "elegance" angle, there's nothing un-elegant about the x64 superset, regardless of how one feels about the old x86 ISA. In fact, you know what? If you want to go there, there's nothing particularly elegant about the PowerPC architecture. Sure, it has some nice features, particularly 3 operand instructions but a pure load-store architecture is, quite frankly, a bit of a pain in the ass at times.

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Besides, architectures do still make a difference today, if less so than in the past - or weren't you paying attention when Android x86 became a full-fledged project rather than a simple cross-compile, because the original was heavily optimized for ARM?


The difference they make is far more significant in terms of the hardware they are used for and not the software they will run. Of course the software will be optimised to get the best out of the hardware, but the software itself doesn't drive the hardware choice like it once did. That's the point.

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I don't give a damn about historical turf wars. I've looked at the architecture, both in its original "some day I'll be a real 32-bit chip!" incarnation and in its later forms. Too few registers and an almost-but-not-quite orthogonal approach to using them that's never entirely disappeared, for one thing. (At least they seem to have finally ditched the last vestiges of memory segmentation in x64.)

...snip...


There are 16 64-bit GPR for the x64. Which as it turns out, is about ideal as compilers have trouble making really deep optimisations for more registers than that. It's not bad for humans either. I would have loved it if the 68000 had completely general purpose registers rather than the 8 data and 8 address registers it had. There was always that one time when you ended up needing an extra register and had to temporarily juggle them. Legacy x86 instructions still use their assumed registers from that set, but you aren't forced to use them, especially when writing 64-bit code. Clean x64/SSE assembler is a far cry from the old x86/x87 code, which I'll grant was pretty nasty. You are being disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

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Aaand when did we start judging quality by commercial success? If we judged movies by their box-office, Transformers 2 would be a masterpiece.


I'm sorry, I must have missed the point when equating popularity of movies to the quality of hardware design was declared a valid argument move.

The architecture got where it is now because it has adapted and always managed to beat the competitors in whatever metric actually mattered at the time, be it cost, clockspeed, power-efficiency, core count, machine width, whatever. If anything, it's track record demonstrates that in the end, the instruction set is the thing that matters least of all.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #66 on: October 06, 2011, 10:45:55 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;662748

Yes, that being that Motorola then IBM could not compete in either performance or cost with the relentless advances being made over on the intel side. Intel macs didn't just appear; intel builds of OSX are as old as their PPC counterparts, just kept under wraps for several years. Apple could see the writing on the wall for desktop PPC way back then and wanted to make sure they had a clean exit strategy. Apple stuck with PPC for as long as it was feasible and not a second longer. If anything, given hindsight, I am a bit surprised they never jumped sooner, considering they already had the OS ready.


I thought I would quickly add my thoughts here... Apple is a VERY "conservative" (small c) company... They will make a massive leap from time to time, but always with that leap they will ensure that they have the bare minimum feature set that works PERFECTLY. Then they will add the bare minimum features every product cycle refresh, again making sure that the added feature set is working bang on... so while it look like Apple is jumping ahead, in reality they are making much smaller but far more sure-footed steps that they know will connect. This looks good to the general public who only want to see only confident, good steps...

I think this covers the intel transition, the G5 and G4 were both just about holding their own in 2005, and this gave Apple time to really polish the x86 port of OSX and give intel time to get the new Core architecture ready... there was no way on earth Steve Jobs would have released a Mac based on the hot and noisy Netburst Pentium4s (thought the IBM 970 wasn't far off)...

And everything Karlos has said about the x86-64/x64 is totally true. From a programming perspective these new 64bit x86 chips are a delight to code for, so much power :)

Just to reiterate Karlos again, the two dominant CPUs now both have 16 general purpose registers and it seems like that really is the magic number... question now is how are ARM going to figure out 64bit... because that is when they'll take the desktop (at least I'm sure Apple will go that way, and maybe M$ with Win8) :)

Offline bloodline

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #67 on: October 06, 2011, 11:35:59 PM »
Want to know what made Steve Jobs great? He understood technology:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob_GX50Za6c&sns=em

Offline tone007

Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2011, 02:50:16 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;662696
Heresy! Classic MacOS was awesome. Way more character than that funky Unix thing they're using now.


Psh.  OS9 and back were serious crap, and yes, I had to support them (back to OS 7.5 or so) on a professional level.

Steve Jobs, however, was definitely one of the home computing pioneers and back in the 80s the Apple II made a big difference at home and in schools.  I preferred the C64 (it was better!) but the Apples definitely had a presence, while not superior in capabilities to the C64 they seemed much more durable.  I still have a IIe in the garage, it might be time to try to get it to do something.
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Offline stefcep2

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2011, 03:41:13 AM »
R.I.P

Re: what made him great:knowing what needed to be done to remove as many barriers between the user and the usability of the hardware eg CLI---->GUI, iPod click wheel, UNIX--->OSX, custom GUI and OS for touch screens when everyone else was using desktop OS's with tacked-on touch screen functionality.  Of course award-winning industrial design and marketing that made Apple products "cool" to own, but none of that would have mattered if the devices didn't work as well as they do, look at Mac Cube, coolest looking mac ever, but ho-hum performer.

It takes talent, vision and insight in know what "works" and what doesn't, and Jobs had that in spades.
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #70 on: October 07, 2011, 03:50:34 AM »
Quote from: Ilwrath;662713

I'm a tinkerer.


Thats a synonym for an amiga user!

And it was beacsue i didn't want to tinker that i bought my first Mac, after using Shapeshifter!  And I'm not sure about all the hate for MacOs classic.

I had a Performa 7200, with a scsi scanner that run MacOS 8.1.  A real workhorse.  Ran photoshop, Office, Quark, Illustrator.  Fantastic graphic work station. Bullet proof reliability, fast enough, and it just "worked".  The multitasking was good enough, the print output and speed was superb.  Couldn't give too hoots about changing the interface, or mucking about with the OS libraries, devices, graphics drivers.  it just did the job without freezing, blue-screening or guruing.
 

Offline Argo

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #71 on: October 07, 2011, 03:53:55 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;662750
Back on topic, his showmanship certainly improved over the years but nobody can deny his enthusiasm for technology, even at the start.

Here, Steve demonstrates the original OSX
[youtube]j02b8Fuz73A[/youtube]

:)


Ha, I remember that! Thus on the road to bringing UNIX to the desktop of the masses.


What ever happen to the Application Developer he demos at the end. Did that ever make it to OS X?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 11:27:38 PM by Argo »
 

Offline scuzzb494

Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #72 on: October 07, 2011, 07:39:11 PM »
A very sad loss.

Offline nicholas

Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #73 on: October 07, 2011, 11:48:00 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;662768
Want to know what made Steve Jobs great? He understood technology:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob_GX50Za6c&sns=em


He understood people too, the man was truly a genius.
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Offline Jpan1

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Re: Steve Jobs passed away!
« Reply #74 from previous page: October 08, 2011, 12:13:25 AM »
I love the Art of technology the feeling you are not using technology when you actually are. I think this is symbiotic, that we are pretty much one with the process and system which ever hardware and whatever system we choose to use. Steve Jobs is a Guru as with Jay miner of the Amiga. So time for a bit of guru Meditation...