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Author Topic: Another Deneb production run?  (Read 16666 times)

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Offline Robert17

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Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #44 from previous page: October 08, 2011, 10:53:18 AM »
@platon42

I'm sorry to hear that the relationship between yourself and E3B Has broken down - but good for you for remaining neutral and not turning this thread into a who said what game.

I was wondering, does this new move also affect users of the Subway, which is also an E3B Product?

Robert.
Member of the Lincs Amiga Group, UK :-)
 

Offline amigadave

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Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2011, 11:01:10 AM »
Quote from: Robert17;662928
@platon42

I'm sorry to hear that the relationship between yourself and E3B Has broken down - but good for you for remaining neutral and not turning this thread into a who said what game.

I was wondering, does this new move also affect users of the Subway, which is also an E3B Product?

Robert.

I would imagine that it affects future products, not products that are already in the hands of Amiga dealers waiting to be sold.
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline Xanxi

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Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2011, 12:02:07 PM »
Quote from: platon42;662926

(PS: I don't think that using my track record of disputes in the past qualifies for judging who did what wrong in the E3B scenario.)


Don't worry, i am not judging you, and i was on your side in the dispute with Elbox anyway.

But the Deneb is such a versatile and fast board that i am very sorry to not be able to buy a new one when i need, or to replace mine if necessary.
10 Classic Amiga Computers so far: I have too many computers!!
 

Offline freqmax

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Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2011, 12:10:27 PM »
Quote from: spirantho;662921
That's not going to happen if there's custom hardware though; can't get a datasheet on an FPGA program, so can't write a driver.
The only hope is if the custom bit is transparent to the controller chip. If it is then I think I smell a bounty....


The datasheet on the USB interface chip should be retrievable. If one additionally traces the PCB one could create a new FPGA binary for the existing hardware. The other method is to debug the existing driver and use that as a reference to get the API, and build a new driver from that.
Neither is rocket science, it's just hard and takes some time.

These things will happen over and again as long as people let them self depend on closed software or hardware.
 

Offline utri007

Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2011, 05:18:10 PM »
Why not use ANAIIS? http://aminet.net/package/driver/other/anaiis

Or is it some how unuseable???
ACube Sam 440ep Flex 800mhz, 1gb ram and 240gb hd and OS4.1FE
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Offline platon42

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Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2011, 06:53:43 PM »
Quote from: freqmax;662938
The datasheet on the USB interface chip should be retrievable. If one additionally traces the PCB one could create a new FPGA binary for the existing hardware. The other method is to debug the existing driver and use that as a reference to get the API, and build a new driver from that.
Neither is rocket science, it's just hard and takes some time.

These things will happen over and again as long as people let them self depend on closed software or hardware.


The FPGA on the Deneb is pretty sophisticated. I don't think it would be easy to write a driver for it without docs. Then again, I wouldn't see a reason why E3B should not publish the necessary docs.

And speaking about reverse engineering to get the API: This is not necessary. The API is the same as in the AROS and MorphOS versions and I think the docs are in both the MorphOS SDK and AROS source tree. And you could still look at the open source code to find out the meaning and use of some device fields if they weren't already obvious. Ah yes, did I mention that the pciusb.device is also open source?

And about rocket science: A programmer was able to hack the deneb driver binary to some other SecretHardware(TM) within two days.
--
Regards, Chris Hodges )-> http://www.platon42.de <-(
hackerkey://v4sw7CJS$hw6/7ln6pr7+8AOP$ck0ma8u2LMw1/4Xm5l3i5TJCOTextPad/e7t2BDMNb7GHLen5a34s5IMr1g3/5ACM
 

Offline LoadWB

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Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2011, 07:25:03 PM »
Quote from: Xanxi;662936
Don't worry, i am not judging you, and i was on your side in the dispute with Elbox anyway.

But the Deneb is such a versatile and fast board that i am very sorry to not be able to buy a new one when i need, or to replace mine if necessary.


Seconded.  I love my Deneb and I very much like Poseidon and Luciferin.  I haven't had much time with my MacMini under MorphOS, but I see the USB interface is our tried-and-true friend.

I want more USB for my Amiga, one way or another.
 

Offline amigadave

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Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2011, 01:27:28 AM »
Quote from: utri007;662949
Why not use ANAIIS? http://aminet.net/package/driver/other/anaiis

Or is it some how unuseable???

It is not as good as Poseiden, but it is still being developed and it is free, so maybe someday it will be as good, or good enough to support most/all of the USB devices we want to use with out Amigas.

I hope that Chris Hodges will continue to develop software for AmigaOS3.x & 4.x, AROS, MorphOS, as talented programmers are too scarce these days in our tiny community.

Although I did raise question(s) about what was going on and why, I did not intend to offend Chris, or imply that he is the bad guy in any of this.

It is just unfortunate that this dispute has happened and that it separates two talented people from working together in the future.:confused:
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline Senex

Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2011, 07:08:08 AM »
Quote from: Crumb;660458
DaVinci is an unreleased PCI solution that is fitted on top of ISA slots (more or less like Mediator4000T) and connects the ZorroIII slot with the PCIs.


Based on the Prometheus, which rights I acquired at the time when Ron van Herk of Computer City and I had set up AHT Europe Ltd. (a company for mainly trying to market a PowerPC-based Amiga STB). My business partner of that time then passed it on to EHB for development of the DaVinci, but I don't know about the details of their negotiations. At least from my side there's definitely nothing holding DaVinci back, E3B is free to do with that stuff whatever they want.
 

Offline Cosmos Amiga

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Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2011, 09:48:14 AM »
How many Deneb was sold ?

Offline wawrzon

Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2011, 10:44:00 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;662988
It is not as good as Poseiden, but it is still being developed and it is free, so maybe someday it will be as good, or good enough to support most/all of the USB devices we want to use with out Amigas.

I hope that Chris Hodges will continue to develop software for AmigaOS3.x & 4.x, AROS, MorphOS, as talented programmers are too scarce these days in our tiny community.

Although I did raise question(s) about what was going on and why, I did not intend to offend Chris, or imply that he is the bad guy in any of this.

It is just unfortunate that this dispute has happened and that it separates two talented people from working together in the future.:confused:


as poseidon has been included in aros, it will eventually get backported to 68k, with any improvements that may have been done there. it remains open, so i dont exactly understand the tragic of the situation. what concerns chris, i think everybody has right to step down at some point rather than be obliged to support amiga to the end of his days, am i wrong?
 

Offline mboehmer_e3b

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Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2011, 09:19:55 PM »
Quote from: freqmax;662938
The datasheet on the USB interface chip should be retrievable. If one additionally traces the PCB one could create a new FPGA binary for the existing hardware.


I have - up to date - not received any request on documentation of DENEB for driver development. The documentation exists (well, it could be in a nicer form, and more detailed on some points, but ASCII never dies ;-) ) and will be made available to anyone who's interested in doing some driver work.

Datasheet of the ISP1760 (former Philips, then NXP, now Sony-Ericsson, tomorrow... good question) is available on the web, and for doing driver development you don't need to do any FPGA reverse engineering (which is, by the way, possible, but definitely not a real fun).

The FPGA "program" for DENEB (which is three programs, to be correct, one for Zorro III, one for Zorro II and Fast-Zorro II, and one for rescue mode) is quite complex. Especially the Zorro III image contains quite a few goodies which take care of certain Buster bugs, and just "writing a new FPGA image" will almost sure take some time until you have reached some stable operation, at least with one type of CPU cards.

Moreover, Zorro III is asynchronous by nature, and FPGAs are naturally synchronous devices, and I can only tell from own experience that Dave Haynie's notes on synchronization are worth reading... that's why the DENEB bus interface is running at 100MHz internally to get stable conditions on the bus.

Which reminds me - there was one attempt to design a Zorro III RAM card from some users while I was doing the ZorRAM design work. I have never seen any working card from that project, which was (if I remember correctly) using an FPGA as bus interface. Last things I heard there was "fast, but unstable operation"... typical symptoms of sync problems.

In total, it is about 500kB VHDL source code for Zorro III PIO and DMA operation.
And this code is not included in the documentation, for the same reasons why you can't get the source code of Poseidon hardware drivers - there's quite a lot of work and experience within ("closed" in your words).

Quote

These things will happen over and again as long as people let them self depend on closed software or hardware.


I think the problem here is somewhat more complex (and agree on that this is not the issue of that thread, but thinking of solutions to cope with the situation).
BTW, the documentation for driver development never was "closed" for any of the E3B products - at least if the chip documentation was not NDA'ed like the SUBWAY/HIGHWAY controllers at the beginning (it was released after some time, before we were simply not allowed to disclose it to third parties).

Michael
 

Offline freqmax

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Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2011, 12:01:39 AM »
If you can sell the plain hardware and provide the hardware API documentation as seen from a programmers view. And there exist free USB-stacks. Then the current USB option deficit can be solved?

If I would make an Zorro USB solution then I would stick to something that can be achieved with reliability, like plain Zorro-II. The rest can be dealt with a later time.
 

Offline Gilloo

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Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2011, 10:38:39 AM »
Quote from: utri007;662949
Why not use ANAIIS? http://aminet.net/package/driver/other/anaiis

Or is it some how unuseable???

Sorry to interfere here, but if a programmer can write a piece of code to translate USBIOReqHCD or USBIOReq structs (OS4.0 Sirion compatible) into usb low level, it could work on ANAIIS!
The problem is that the programmer in question is not born.

ANAIIS can manage mouse, keyboard, printer, massstorage, joystick, so what else :) ?
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2011, 02:23:50 PM »
Quote from: mboehmer_e3b;663269
I have - up to date - not received any request on documentation of DENEB for driver development. The documentation exists (well, it could be in a nicer form, and more detailed on some points, but ASCII never dies ;-) ) and will be made available to anyone who's interested in doing some driver work.

Michael


im not sure if its neccessary but wouldnt you think it would be good to upload whats available and open of the documentation to aminet if only for safekeeping. in the end there was cases of documentation lost, that might be helpful at some point though.
 

Offline mboehmer_e3b

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Re: Another Deneb production run?
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2011, 01:36:31 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;663327
im not sure if its neccessary but wouldnt you think it would be good to upload whats available and open of the documentation to aminet if only for safekeeping. in the end there was cases of documentation lost, that might be helpful at some point though.


You don't seem to trust by backup system :-(

Michael