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Offline Tripitaka

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #74 from previous page: September 21, 2011, 02:25:28 AM »
To be honest I don't consider the "Amiga is dead so it needs to bring out something amazing in 12 months" approach at all valid. I've noticed this comment on this thread and others before. It's rubbish! The Amiga is no more or less dead in general terms (ie. to the masses) if it takes 5 years more for a new machine. Sooooo...

...maybe the best approach would be to get in early with future techs like Silicon Integrated Nanophotonics, Coriolis fans, MRAM etc... and build something truly astounding. Lets face it any new Amiga should have Thunderbolt as standard at least.

If your not familiar with the above techs just google them.

Sadly any approach is limited by cash first and foremost and without big investment the chances are Amiga will never catch up again. It breaks my heart to say it but I think one of us needs a big lottery win to throw at the problem. :/
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Offline amigadave

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2011, 03:09:47 AM »
Quote from: Tripitaka;660337
To be honest I don't consider the "Amiga is dead so it needs to bring out something amazing in 12 months" approach at all valid. I've noticed this comment on this thread and others before. It's rubbish! The Amiga is no more or less dead in general terms (ie. to the masses) if it takes 5 years more for a new machine. Sooooo...

...maybe the best approach would be to get in early with future techs like Silicon Integrated Nanophotonics, Coriolis fans, MRAM etc... and build something truly astounding. Lets face it any new Amiga should have Thunderbolt as standard at least.

If your not familiar with the above techs just google them.

Sadly any approach is limited by cash first and foremost and without big investment the chances are Amiga will never catch up again. It breaks my heart to say it but I think one of us needs a big lottery win to throw at the problem. :/

Sadly, throwing money at the problem without great ideas and vision behind it is a waste of money.  Look at the amount of money claimed to have been spent by CUSA on marketing and developing a "knock-off" retro case and then look at the end product and what most people around here think about their chances for success.  Only time will tell if the majority here will be correct about the long term success of CUSA, or if they will be proved wrong and Barry & company will still be in business and making a profit 3 years from now.  It is going to take a lot more than money to ever bring the Amiga back into anything close to the mainstream of computing.
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Offline Tripitaka

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2011, 03:15:44 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;660341
Sadly, throwing money at the problem without great ideas and vision behind it is a waste of money.  Look at the amount of money claimed to have been spent by CUSA on marketing and developing a "knock-off" retro case and then look at the end product and what most people around here think about their chances for success.  Only time will tell if the majority here will be correct about the long term success of CUSA, or if they will be proved wrong and Barry & company will still be in business and making a profit 3 years from now.  It is going to take a lot more than money to ever bring the Amiga back into anything close to the mainstream of computing.


I agree that cash alone is no answer but without it great ideas often die an undeserved death. Capitalism sucks in that respect. :(
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Offline PastAmigaOwner

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2011, 03:57:11 AM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;660046
@Boudicca:

"biggest insults" oh come now let's not get petty!  Or would you rather Amiga was beaten to death by IBM's little minions?

Although the irony does not escape me, but it doesn't stop there.  Of course there was also the Apple Macintosh that also ran on 68k, migrated to PPC and managed to survive with a respectable share of the market only finally to admit that they had to migrate again to the dreaded x86.  Now Microsoft has stated that Windows 8 will be available for ARM, and how willing will Apple be to put its customers through another platform shift?  Apple will be out on a limb clinging to x86 while Windows jumps ship to the Neo-Archimedes!


Actually Mac OS X handles various processor technologies pretty well thanks to its NEXT heritage.  The PPC to Intel switch was reasonably painless for users since they didn't have to figure out which executable binaries to download.  That removes the burden from the user in having to figure out which version of an application to download.  XCODE will compile universal binaries pretty seamlessly.  The same is true for 32-bit versus 64-bit OS X software.  Developers just compiles universal "fat" binaries and Mac OS X figures out which to run based on processor architecture.  The same would be true if Apple decided to switch to ARM.  Apple uses the same approach for both OS X and iOS.

There have been rumors for some time that Apple has been testing their Macbook Air with their "A-series" ARM processors that power the iPad and iPhone, but I think it'll be several more years before ARM is powerful enough to be a serious desktop contender.  That doesn't mean they won't devote R&D resources and keep experimenting with it though.
 

Offline vidarh

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #78 on: September 21, 2011, 09:56:36 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;660314
I'm just not seeing this, no matter how many times tablet evangelists repeat it. How is a tablet with a detachable keyboard that you have to lug around separately more convenient than a laptop which has it built-in?


Who is arguing that tablets are more convenient to lug around if what you need is a laptop? But the point is the vast majority of users don't need a laptop - smartphones already vastly outsell laptops and demonstrates what users really are looking for: a tiny, portable computing device that does the basics.

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Since by "power users" you apparently mean "anyone who uses a computer for anything more than YouTube and AIM," I am going to have to vehemently disagree that they are a minority at all, let alone a tiny one.


Sales numbers disagree with you.

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See, this is the difference between "can" and "should." Yes, it's possible to use a tablet with a Bluetooth keyboard in place of a laptop, but that doesn't make it a better option. Separate Bluetooth keyboards require a case like my brother has in order to not be a pain in the ass, and while snap-on keyboards like the Eee Transformer circumvent that, in either case you're just making it into a poor man's laptop.


You're back to talking about tablets when my focus have been smartphones. FACT is that more smartphones get sold than laptops. FAR more. At home, more and more newer smartphones can transform into a stationary computer by hooking up to a monitor or TV and a bluetooth keyboard. Same goes for tablets. The Transformer, Atrix and cases are workarounds for people who mostly just need a smartphone or tablet, but *sometimes* want laptop like functionality but not badly enough to want to buy both (or opt for the laptop instead of a smartphone). Those options will remain niche.

What won't remain niche is for the user that want a large screen stationary setup to instead of having both a smartphone and a desktop come home and plug their phone into their screen and have all their data accessible in one location but with a large screen as an option rather than paying for two computers and have to deal with shuffling data around.

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Which raises the question, why not just a laptop, then? They're cheaper, they're nearly as compact,


They're nowhere near as compact or practical as a tablet, but I was talking about smartphones - tablets are a tiny niche - and my phone fits in all my pockets, my laptops don't.

But lets talk about tablets for a second: My tablet slips easily into my bag. My laptops don't. I could get a netbook, but it'd be as slow as my tablet, more expensive than my tablet, and it'd be far less convenient in the places where I use my tablet, such as while commuting, when what I want is a device I can easily hold with one hand while reading or surfing.

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 they have a better software selection, and you don't have to tote around a separate freakin' keyboard if you feel you might need it (or leave it behind thinking you won't and then find that you do after all.)


More users use smartphones than laptops, so clearly most users are perfectly fine not carrying a keyboard around, or not having the same application selection.

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And while desktop PCs might not be as convenient generally as laptops or other portable computers, they offer full access to all the expandability the market offers, up to gigabytes of RAM, terabytes of hard disk space, and the best CPU and GPU horsepower out there, and that's something no portable computer can claim.


Most users *never* open their machine, so no extra RAM, no extra internal harddrives (ever wonder why the market for external harddrives is as huge as it is, and why network attached storage is so big?). Have you looked around your local PC shop lately? In most mainstream ones, you'll see most machines displayed are laptops, all-in-one PC's built into the monitor, or small form factor machines which are nearly impossible to expand.  Ordinary users don't care about expandability, nor even know about the options.

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Yes, that's probably not necessary for most users, but the set of people who can make significant use of more than what a laptop or tablet can provide is most certainly non-negligible.


I'm not saying it is, but of the 300 million sold PC's last year, I'd be shocked if it accounted for more than 30 million users. 10% of the market. A market that has already been surpassed in size by smartphones, and that is stagnant, while the smartphone market is projected to pass 600 million new units sold next year.

Tens of millions of users is still a valuable market, and a high margin one at that, and so there will remain plenty of options for those who need or want larger box computers, but it'll become a smaller part of the overall market.

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You'll note, however, that the primary use of VNC in the personal-use computing world is to allow netbooks and tablets to access the storage capacity and computing power of desktop PCs.


Which is another reason why people don't need to carry high end computing power with them. My main machine is a low powered laptop. It can be even for someone like me who definitively fall in the power user category, because all the heavy lifting is done by a big server under the stairs.

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The question is, what happens when they're ubiquitous enough that they stop being cool, and the public frenzy is diverted to some new trendy gadget? They'll be left with only the people who really want them and are comfortable using them, and who knows what percentage of the peak market share that will be?


My prediction is that it will *become* the majority of the PC market. It won't replace PC's - it will gain the capaibilities needed to *become* PC's for the large majority of PC users that today buy $200-$600 PC's and/or the users that have eschewed PC's for phones for years already (e.g. penetration of expensive phones amongst the <25 year age group is far higher than the penetration of PC's).

Desktops will keep becoming smaller, lessening the gap, with larger PC's remaining confined to enthusiasts as they have been for the last 10-15 years, but their market share will shrink as it has for years, only now it will lose sales to smartphones instead of laptops.

The laptop market will flatten out, and maybe start a slow decline, as people left buying laptops will increasingly be people who are business users who travel and power users who do serious work but want to do it from the sofa. The casual users who have driven the surge in laptop sales are users that moved on from desktops because laptops took less space and could be moved more easily, but that still have computing needs largely easily met by low end tablets and/or high end smart phones + screen / keyboard combo's.

Within 5 years, the majority of computing will be done on smart phones - already by end of 2013, the number of smart phones in active use is likely to have surpassed the number of desktops and laptops in active use with current projections - the PC market is growing at less than 4% year over year, while the smartphone market is growing at more like 40%-50% year over year.

Given the low price point of the low end of this market, the smartphone and tablet markets combined are likely to get far wider penetration into low income markets, which will drive the numbers to far higher totals than for PC's - About 3 times as many people in the world have cellphones as have PC's, and while most of those are simple devices, we've seen the capabilities of the lowest end devices rapidly increase as the cost gets low enough. E.g. even poor but large countries like Nigeria are one of the largest cellphone markets in the world because if people have to choose between buying a phone or buying a PC, the market shows that the phone almost always wins out. This will accelerate as the option to buy a phone with computing functionality tilts the benefit of even a mid range phone further towards picking the phone.

Feel free to hold me to this in five years time :)
 

Offline Mrs BeanbagTopic starter

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #79 on: September 21, 2011, 01:32:04 PM »
Well I agree with everyone.  I know this sounds paradoxical, because everyone aren't agreeing with each other, but I can see everyone's point...

Here's the way I see it.

Nvidia and others think ARM has a future in the mainstream desktop/laptop market and are putting their money where their mouth is.  Microsoft also agree and when ARM based PCs appear, Windows 8 will run on it.

Apple can migrate to ARM, but unlike Microsoft also build their own hardware and bundle the OS with it as a complete product.  Even though OSX will run on a lot of generic PC hardware you can't just buy it for that purpose, you either get it pre-installed on the hardware or you get an illegal copy.  As such Apple will migrate to ARM for their desktop/PC market when they have to, not just because they can.

So when Denver comes out there will be a gap of several years while Windows has essentially no competition in this corner of the market.

Nvidia are consciously aiming for the low end of the market, not high performance or gaming rigs.  They will be better suited to HTPC.  I see that Amiga has a chance here (if the financial backing were available, of course) to make inroads into the HTPC market at that point.  It won't have the CPU "grunt" but let's face it Amiga never did, it was always a fairly competent CPU backed up by the custom chips.  If you wanted pure grunt you got a PC, even in the Amiga's heyday.  That's not what it was for.  In 1987 even the Archimedes outperformed an Amiga in pure CPU terms, but the Amiga was better for games and other 2D graphics applications because of its custom chips.  As someone else pointed out, "CPU as supervisor with specialised coprocessors to do the grunt work" is also the ARM philosophy!

I think if there is to be any next generation Amiga it will have to be what Amiga always was -  a multimedia PC, and a console with an OS.  There is a desire for that, people were installing Linux on Playstations until Sony put a stop to it for some reason.  You don't need grunt to do that.  Consoles don't have grunt, they have graphics chips (the Xbox 360 actually runs on a PowerPC chip).

And here is how it could work: Amiga as chipset.  Essentially a Natami board with a Denver ARM socket, with the 68N070 coprocessor that monitors/controls the hardware.  Old games will be able to run directly on the chipset (one is reminded of the Sega Megadrive, which had the same Z80 that powered the Master System as a coprocessor, and could run Master System games through it), AGA will replace the old EGA bios text mode, while an onboard (Nvidia?) graphics chip provides gaming performance at Playstation 3 levels.  It will do everything your Amiga does (including running classic Amiga software), it will play games classic and modern, it will function as an HTPC, and it will also function as an entry-level desktop PC if you want it to (web browsing, e-mail etc).

If you want all that and grunt AS WELL, well, wait until the ARMiga 1200 works out, and the ARMiga 4000 might follow.

Are there any objections other than that it's all pie in the sky?  If anyone else happens to have the money, I've got the ideas and the vision!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 01:34:46 PM by Mrs Beanbag »
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Offline persia

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #80 on: September 21, 2011, 01:58:14 PM »
ARM and X86 will fight it out for world domination whilst Power architecture will slowly fade into history.  Power's mistreatment of Apple turned out to be their demise.
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Offline Mrs BeanbagTopic starter

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #81 on: September 21, 2011, 02:16:01 PM »
Oh and for the record, I don't think x86 is evil because it's a monopoly.  I think x86 is evil because it's absurd.  The fact that it is also a monopoly is just rubbing salt into the wound.

I'm going to quote some things from the 1996 edition of Computer Architecture: A Quantitative Approach (appendix D):

Quote
"The x86 isn't all that complex - it just doesn't make a lot of sense."

Mike Johnson
Leader of 80x86 Design at AMD,
Microprocessor Report (1994)


Concluding Remarks

As we have seen, "orthogonal" is not a term found in the Intel architectural dictionary.  To fully understand which registers and which addressing modes are available, you need to see the encoding of all addressing modes and sometimes the encoding of the instructions.

Some argue that inelegance of the 80x86 instruction set is unavoidable, the price that must be paid for rampant success by any architecture.  These authors reject that notion.  Obviously no successful architecture can jettison features that were added in previous implementations, and over time some features may be seen as undesirable.  The awkwardness of the 80x86 began at its core with the 8086 instruction set and was exacerbated by the architecturally inconsistent expansions of the 8087, 80286, and 80386.

A counterexample is the IBM 360/370 architecture, which is much older than the 80x86.  It dominates the mainframe market just as the 80x86 dominates the PC market.  Due undoubtedly to a better base and more compatible enhancements, this instruction set makes much more sense than the 80x86 more than 30 years after its first implementation.

For better or worse, Intel had a 16-bit microprocessor years before its competitors' more elegant architectures, and this head start led to the selection of the 8086 as the CPU for the IBM PC.  What it lacks in style is made up in quantity, making the 80x86 beautiful from the right perspective.

The saving grace of the 80x86 is that its architectural components are not too difficult to implement, as Intel has demonstrated by rapidly improving performance of integer programs since 1978.  High floating-point performance is a larger challenge in this architecture.
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Offline Tripitaka

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #82 on: September 21, 2011, 03:45:26 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;660393
Essentially a Natami board with a Denver ARM socket,


Well I mentioned Denver plus Natami back on page four of this thread and I'm pleased to see someone agree. If this could happen I for one would be very happy. Perhaps Hyperion should have a chat with Gunnar and co about it.....

....LMAO, no chance! it's just too much like common sense to ever happen.
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Offline Mrs BeanbagTopic starter

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #83 on: September 21, 2011, 04:10:22 PM »
@Tripitaka: I've been thinking on similar lines for some time in fact, but now I've heard about Denver it seems a good deal more plausible.  We've got a Beagleboard in the house, I wonder if we could get it to play nicely with a natami/minimig somehow...
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Offline SamuraiCrow

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #84 on: September 21, 2011, 04:30:05 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;660419
@Tripitaka: I've been thinking on similar lines for some time in fact, but now I've heard about Denver it seems a good deal more plausible.  We've got a Beagleboard in the house, I wonder if we could get it to play nicely with a natami/minimig somehow...


In order to get MiniMig to play nicely with a BeagleBoard, you'll need a field programmable gate array chip to hold the graphics and sound core.  I don't think the BeagleBoard comes with one.

The NatAmi is an FPGA-based SoC that will have both the CPU and graphics and sound cores all on one FPGA chip (someday, anyway).  About all that we have in common with the Denver chip is that we're pursuing some of the same market space.  I'd love to have an up-to-date chip fabrication process on a full-fledged FPGA but that's not the priority now.  Getting the bugs worked out is the priority.
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #85 on: September 21, 2011, 04:51:27 PM »
Nice, an ARM 'Amiga' :( Not wanted, because Amiga is hardware, not software (680x0+chipset). My Amiga hobby is based on actual Amiga hardware, and not some non-Amiga hardware. The software just makes the machine useful. What Amiga really needs is a better OS (written from scratch, and for 680x0+chipset) and new software that's also written from scratch.
Quote from: Heiroglyph;660026
68k is pretty much the one constant in the Amiga universe, we just need them to be faster
For what? Running crappy ports of crappy (not crappy in a functional sense) peecee bloatware? I'd rather just use my peecee, even if it's just because it has better operating systems than the completely outdated Amiga OS (AOS sucks and needs a replacement badly).
 

Offline SamuraiCrow

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #86 on: September 21, 2011, 05:06:45 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;660428
Nice, an ARM 'Amiga' :( Not wanted, because Amiga is hardware, not software (680x0+chipset). My Amiga hobby is based on actual Amiga hardware, and not some non-Amiga hardware. The software just makes the machine useful. What Amiga really needs is a better OS (written from scratch, and for 680x0+chipset) and new software that's also written from scratch.


I disagree about the OS sucking so bad.  It's the compilers that suck.  If we could get an up-to-date compiler for 68k, we could write software in C, C++, and (by extension) PortablE that didn't suck instead of twiddling around in Assembly for our larger apps.  Also, since AROS is written in C we'll need the compilers to work better for that as well.
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #87 on: September 21, 2011, 06:08:39 PM »
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;660429
I disagree about the OS sucking so bad.
The reason I say it sucks is because even 68030s can do a whole lot better (probably 68020 as well). The problem with AOS is that it's thoroughly stuck in the past. For example, not having memory protection as on option is one major gripe. Another is the completely antiquated GUI (not talking about just eye candy here). Also, all those damned patches just plain suck, and aren't needed on something new.

Our Amigas need something better, even if it's not a complete OS.
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;660429
It's the compilers that suck.  If we could get an up-to-date compiler for 68k, we could write software in C, C++, and (by extension) PortablE that didn't suck instead of twiddling around in Assembly for our larger apps.
Don't know about that, I dream of something like Visual Asm++ :D No, really, it would be awesome. Anyway, are Amiga C/C++ compilers really so bad? Just asking, because I haven't done much with them.
 

Offline SamuraiCrow

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #88 on: September 21, 2011, 06:30:28 PM »
@Thorham

The reason Exec and the other libraries are stuck in the past is that they were written in 68k Assembly.  That just made them harder to bring into the 21st century when 3.5 and 3.9 were written.

As for the compilers, LLVM will soon be able to use a PBQP register scheduler that can store multiple small variables in one register.  This would improve register loading and make it look more like somebody sat down and hand-assembled the whole thing.  The GCC compiler could do similar things but doesn't because the 68k backend is so antiquated.  Nobody will put the time nor energy into GCC 68k because it's thought to be a dead architecture outside of embedded controller use.
 

Offline Mrs BeanbagTopic starter

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Re: ARM based Amiga?
« Reply #89 on: September 21, 2011, 06:43:05 PM »
@Thorham:

Hang on a minute... first you say Amiga is "hardware (680x0 + chipset)", then you complain that the OS is "stuck in the past!"  With all due respect, the 680x0 and the classic Amiga chipset are obsolete hardware.  Don't get me wrong, I love the classic Amiga, but if you insist that that is what Amiga is and always will be, the Amiga is a relic of the past, a museum piece used only by die-hard hobbyists.  I can sympathise, but this is not a way forwards.

In fact I love the 680x0, and I'm about to code some asm in it this afternoon, but it's possibly the least Amiga thing about the Amiga.  Why?  Because it was a generic part.  It was also in Macs and Megadrives and goodness knows what else.  Even the floppy disk drive was more uniquely Amiga (who else got 880k on their floppy disks?).  The OS and the chipset were specifically Amiga products.  Both of these need updating for the 21st century.

@SamuraiCrow: I'm not talking about having the Bealgeboard and Minimig on the same board - perhaps some kind of serial link could be used at first.  A sort of early proof of concept.
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