ARM based Amiga?

[HenryCase]

@HenryCase: yeah, why not?

...and if I put DOSBox on it and run Windows, does it become a Windows tablet?

[Mrs Beanbag]

@HenryCase

I don't know where you're going with this.  It's a Windows tablet if it runs Windows.  It's a Mac tablet if it runs OSX.  It's an Amiga tablet if it runs AmigaOS.  Or maybe you think it needs a 880k floppy drive to qualify?

Windows 7 now needs an emulation layer to run XP software.  Is it still Windows?  Double glazing, maybe.

[nicholas]

A neat homebrew tablet, I agree with you on. However, Amiga has little to do with it.

Natively running AROS on it would make it an Amiga for me.

[commodorejohn]

Well there is that, plus modern optimising compilers pull all kinds of tricks that you'd have to be super-expert to know about.  But have you ever seen x86 asm?  It is the very work of the Devil.

I still think this "optimizing compilers are better than humans" thing is a load of crap. What they mean is, "optimizing compilers are better than insufficiently educated humans," which is true of any optimization techniques, not just the use of assembler.

And yeah, x86 is ugly. Not as awful as it was in the bad old 16-bit days, but still ugly.

[HenryCase]

I don't know where you're going with this.  It's a Windows tablet if it runs Windows.  It's a Mac tablet if it runs OSX.  It's an Amiga tablet if it runs AmigaOS.  Or maybe you think it needs a 880k floppy drive to qualify?

Windows 7 now needs an emulation layer to run XP software.  Is it still Windows?  Double glazing, maybe.

My point is that you can't reduce the requirements for making something an 'Amiga' to being the capacity to run an emulator, as it means the term has lost its meaning.

A computing device is most strongly defined by its hardware and by the operating system that runs on top of it. Applications like UAE do not define a platform in a useful sense, as they're platform agnostic. Attaching a label of 'Amiga' to something does not automatically make it a better computing device, the label alone is meaningless.

Natively running AROS on it would make it an Amiga for me.

That's about as close as you could get to calling it an Amiga.

[Mrs Beanbag]

@HenryCase:

So what's the difference between a Mac and a PC now, just the operating system?  But if you install Windows on a Mac, which you can now do (and vice versa with the right combination of hardware), is it still essentially a Mac?  Hmm... it's beginning to sound like a computer is whatever the manufacturer says it is.

I agree with you in principle but I still don't think we've got to the root of the matter.  What if you build a computer (tablet or otherwise) with generic hardware, and installed some version of UAE that could boot straight up without any intervening operating system?  In other words, UAE in the kernel.  Would that be an Amiga?  What if the hardware was supplied by Amiga Inc?

Or does the difference have something to do with the BIOS, or the ROM?  What if a computer had a custom BIOS that showed an image of a hand holding up a CD when you turned it on?  And you got into the BIOS utility by holding down both mouse buttons.  What if the old EGA text mode were replaced by OCS graphics?

[HenryCase]

@HenryCase:
So what's the difference between a Mac and a PC now, just the operating system?

Yes.

[bloodline]

Natively running AROS on it would make it an Amiga for me.

I'm totally with Nicholas here. AROS is built to the same design patterns that AmigaOS and even has 1.3 compatiblity (wierd BCPL stuff thanks to Jason and Toni)... It runs on x86, x86-64, PPC, ARM and 68k... It's hard not to like AROS, unless you have a severe learning difficulty :-/

[HenryCase]

It's hard not to like AROS, unless you have a severe learning difficulty :-/

This is not the way to promote AROS. I would suggest you refrain from making such statements in the future.

[Tension]

Unfortunately there will never be an ARM Amiga, as Hyperion will never allow the OS to run on it. They're too far gone.

[fishy_fiz]

Am I theo nly person who's not particularly interested in ARM? Way underpowered (even ppc looks powerful in comparison) for starters. People already complain about the weakness of ppc hardware, and ARM is another step down the ladder. Yes, its cheap, but so is x86. ARM does have very low power consumption, but its no wonder given the low specs (the frequencies mean nothing,... a dual core 1.6ghz arm chip is still slower than a 1ghz g4 in most circumstances).

Basically gimme x86 over arm anyday. As most of the IT industry is aware getting x86 to the sorts of power consumptions levels of ARM is a heck of a lot easier then getting ARM to reach x86 raw grunt levels. AMD/ATI/Intel/Nvidia/etc all agree on this (eve in the light of Denver).

Each to thier own, but I have no interest in an Amiga system that's so weak. We already have that. The whole, "x86 is  monopololistic evil" thing is, quite simply, a crock. Gimme raw power, nicely designed, cheap cpus anyday over the latest fad (which ARM is).

Do I dislike ARM, no. Im probably more experienced with it than most of its Amiga advocates, and it has some things that are nice. But I really dont want another architecture not suited well to the desktop to be more than an option. To make it the prominent arch is just giving amiga yet another thing to worry about a few years down the track when the fad starts waining.

[SamuraiCrow]

I stand behind my teammates on the NatAmi project.  The N68070 will kick butt when it comes out.  The N68050 will be the best softcore until then once it comes out.

I used to use an 800 MHz Pentium III with the basic performance of a Raspberry Pi.  If you don't need it to fit in small places I'll sell it to you gutted with parts removed for $5 + shipping.  

What made Amiga fun to work with was that you could tinker under the hood with the Hardware Reference Manual as a guide.  No need for drivers because they all had the same chipset.  No need for emulation layers because they all had the same processor series.

I personally think the next stage is a compile-time VM that uses AROS as the runtimes.  Then it will run full-speed on any platform that AROS runs on.  This included hosted AROS on Linux, Mac, Windows, Android 2.2+, PPC Linux, and ARM Linux.  The catch is just designing everything to fit together.

[Argo]

Never happen, but a table Amiga would be awesome.

[ferrellsl]

Can't resist my 2 cents here...

yea but too bad:
1> aros has absolutely nothing to do with real amiga's..other than being a native pc wanna be copy.... and now arm aparently.

2> doesn't take advantage of all the existing 68K amiga software out there

3>doesn't run amiga games

4> doesnt run on real amiga hardware(and i don't mean the crap that has boing ball stickers all over it).

5>  oddly aros is to be done for the real amiga? what a joke. so a old,real amiga is supposed to run aros apps written for a 3ghz+ pc? yea that will work really fine.
its the same problem now,we have people coding bloatware for 68K amigaos written on a emulator with 32MB chip ram,and crazy speed,so it crawls and is useless for real 68K machines. its contaminating aminets code base.

Aros is just another fork in the road to take amiga developers off real machines that won't be any use to anyone(except people who dont have a clue what an amiga really is).

Without getting everyone on the same page(remember when we all furthered real amiga's along),i dont think there is much hope of getting anywhere if putting licensing and copyright issues aside.You just cant make good progress when you are split in 6+ directions.

-Mech-

You've obviously never used AROS, so let me set the record straight because your comments are just plain wrong.  

1.  AROS runs Amiga games quite will under emulation.

2.  AROS runs most 68K Amiga software just fine, games, office, audio, etc.....

3.  AROS has quite a bit to do with "real" Amigas.  It uses the exact same programming API that's available under OS3.x, so most 68K Amiga code can be compiled under AROS with little or no modification.

No one is writing applications on AROS for backporting to 68K systems to my knowledge.  That would be ridiculous.  But plenty of programmers are taking 68K code and compiling it for AROS.  And since you like to refer to AROS using absolutes, what Amiga system out there takes advantage of "ALL" 68K software?  The answer is simple, none of them.  I have quite a bit of classic Amiga software that isn't compatible across all variations of my 68K Amigas.

4.  I'd like for you to explain how and why you think AROS is "contaminating" the 68K code base because I don't think you have a clue as to what you're talking about.

5.  What "real" machines are you talking about?  There are no more "real" 68k Amigas being produced to develop on.  And people buying Minimigs use them primarily to run old software, not develop new 68K software.  You might find less than 5 programmers world-wide who still develop on a 68K Amiga.  And the newer PPC based Amigas are just as alien to the 68K world as an Intel box running AROS, so your arguments sound very lame.

I suggest you actually download and install AROS and use it for a few days before you get on a forum and display your ignorance.

[commodorejohn]

Am I theo nly person who's not particularly interested in ARM? Way underpowered (even ppc looks powerful in comparison) for starters. People already complain about the weakness of ppc hardware, and ARM is another step down the ladder.

Yes, but that's increasingly less true as its popularity grows and more development effort is put into it. (And hey, development dollars from popularity in commonplace crap computers were the only reason x86 didn't stay a poky little 16-bit chip forever.)

And anyway, I honestly believe we're reaching a saturation point for CPU power, at least for everyday tasks. In fact, I think we reached it quite a while ago. I'm typing this on a seven-year-old 1.33GHz PowerBook G4 running TenFourFox, and while it's got its problems for CPU-intensive tasks, basic web browsing is responsive enough that I have a hard time noticing a difference between it and newer x86 boxes.

Each to thier own, but I have no interest in an Amiga system that's so weak. We already have that. The whole, "x86 is  monopololistic evil" thing is, quite simply, a crock. Gimme raw power, nicely designed, cheap cpus anyday over the latest fad (which ARM is).

I don't think it's evil, but I do think it's boring as hell. x86 computers are the unflavored yogurt of computing - sure, it'll work with anything and there's nothing wrong with it per se, but you wouldn't want it for enjoyment purposes. I already have it doing a perfectly satisfactory job of powering my generic machines - why would I want it in an Amigoid system?

(Also, if there's one thing it isn't, it's "nicely designed." The x86 architecture is an ugly mass of kludges accumulated over 32 years of continual slapdash upgrading. It works, largely thanks to compilers abstracting away all the ugliness where most people don't have to look at it, but that doesn't make it nice.)

[ChuckT]

Just throwing an idea into the wind here, but with NVidia's Project Denver desktop ARM based CPU threatening to mop the floor with Intel (yeah believe it when you see it), perhaps an ARM implementation of AmigaOS would be a prudent move.  I've waited for so long for x86 to bite the dust, it's kind of amazing how they've managed to keep the 680x0's arch enemy propped up for so long. Plus a surprise victory from the good old Acorn Archimedes, or to my mind the "British Amiga"!

Any thoughts?

I think one of the problems is "Who is going to build it?"  If you paid the Natami team as much as engineers get paid, how much money would you need to raise?  If you were to pay a team of engineers to put the Amiga on ARM, I would welcome it but how much would you need to raise to pay some engineers?

I remember from the 80's that some things worked well on the Amiga and other things worked well on the MAC or the IBM.  If you are porting things to ARM then they really need to be redesigned to be hardware specific and that might mean re-writing the Amiga Operating System.

I can't speak for Hyperion but supporting multiple platforms may or may not be worth it to them.  And if some things work better on different hardware, would everyone be happy?

There are different people here who already are heavily into their niche that I bet most won't support moving to ARM due to cost, they are already invested in another system or they have enough they are involved in.  It was the same boat I was in as I put all my money into Amiga instead of Eprom burners, the required books on different chips, surface mount soldering irons and equipment.  The Do It Yourself Movement with computers went broke in the 80's because normal people couldn't keep up with the big companies because it cost too much.

There are a handful of home made or private companies that make their own computers these days but there already isn't enough support.  I think that Amiga.org should consider an electronics forum should there be ARM, microcontroller support, FPGA experimentation or other stuff and then you could recruit some users to get involved but I think you need to reinvent Amiga and be satisfied with what you can do with the current available hardware out there.  Because there won't be support and because we can't compete then there will be SAMs, AROS, emulation, etc.  You can't really expect non-engineers in this forum to learn geek stuff written by engineers for engineers so that they can make an Amiga like computer, can you?