Zune for all platforms

[HenryCase]

@kamelito

Then Morphos devs said that they gave back source code to Aros. So if intuition rely on MUI internals on Morphos then its not a problem as you gave back the corrected/modified source code to Aros, or Am I missing something?

The MorphOS devs haven't violated the terms of the APL. They aren't required to share every change they made to the AROS code, APL is not like a GPL licence in this way.

@all
Can we get back to discussing the bounty please. Who is interested in donating (if not straight away, then later)? If you're not interested in the Phase 1 bounty, would you be interested in supporting later Zune Fix bounties?
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/61

[kamelito]

@kamelito


The MorphOS devs haven't violated the terms of the APL. They aren't required to share every change they made to the AROS code, APL is not like a GPL licence in this way.

@all
Can we get back to discussing the bounty please. Who is interested in donating (if not straight away, then later)? If you're not interested in the Phase 1 bounty, would you be interested in supporting later Zune Fix bounties?
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/61

I already donated 20 bucks. If I was a good developer in need of money, I'll be waiting until the money from the zune enhancement bounty is moved to the new bounty. I suppose that the Power2P guy do have the email addresses of the one who haven't moved their money yet, so why not asked them to send a mail explaining all that?

Kamel
PS a bit off topic, MUI4 seems great because of its OOP roots but it's too bad that the entire system is not done that way a bit like NextStep or Cocoa API any plans about this? A bit more abastraction would make development shorter, MUI is only one piece of the puzzle.
PSS I didn't say they violate AROS APL I was just trying to understand it.

[eb15]

In my opinion, starting with the MUI3.8 target was like asking folks to drop back to kickstart/workbench 2.04 standards (limited AGA/RTG/locale support, etc.)

If you want to gain support of _all_ Amiga-like platforms for an improved Zune, you should try to offer something that they don't already have.   If you're directly targeting MUI4, you might expect support from the communities that don't have that level of MUI API compatibility available to their platform.

One could ask app developers what they think should be in a hypothetical MUI 5.x, feature list and then take that info along with examining the currently available MUI3.9 and MUI4 implementations to shape the Zune development plan.

[kamelito]

In my opinion, starting with the MUI3.8 target was like asking folks to drop back to kickstart/workbench 2.04 standards (limited AGA/RTG/locale support, etc.)

If you want to gain support of _all_ Amiga-like platforms for an improved Zune, you should try to offer something that they don't already have.   If you're directly targeting MUI4, you might expect support from the communities that don't have that level of MUI API compatibility available to their platform.

One could ask app developers what they think should be in a hypothetical MUI 5.x, feature list and then take that info along with examining the currently available MUI3.9 and MUI4 implementations to shape the Zune development plan.

 Nobody wanted to accept the original bounty because it was a lot of work for say maybe not enough money. (even if money is not everything here). The decision was taken (see aros-exec.org forums) to create a multiple phases bounty. The first one aimed at 3.8 compatibility. The others will take care of MUI 4 and more.   Kamel

[itix]

PS a bit off topic, MUI4 seems great because of its OOP roots but it's too bad that the entire system is not done that way a bit like NextStep or Cocoa API any plans about this? A bit more abastraction would make development shorter, MUI is only one piece of the puzzle.

Yes and no. MUI offers neat classes for other than just UI (i.e. Dataspace.mui) and more system structs in MorphOS are returned as OOP objects instead of plain structs. But I am not sure if BOOPSI is the best possible solution. Its ID based method dispatcher is bit clumsy sometimes.

[Rebel-CD32]

The severe lack of understanding and constant jumping to conclusions is really hurting this cause, and therefore holding back the entire Amiga community.

[takemehomegrandma]

One could ask app developers what they think should be in a hypothetical MUI 5.x, feature list and then take that info along with examining the currently available MUI3.9 and MUI4 implementations to shape the Zune development plan.

MUI is still under development AFAIK, so let the Zune re-implementation coneinue being a re-implementation of MUI (3.8/4.0) and nothing else, and then when/if MUI reaches some MUI5 level, only *then* have a look at it!

[kolla]

Why re-invent the wheel for like the third of fourth time

Because Stefan Stuntz and the MorphOS devs are a bunch of wussies.

[kolla]

Nobody wanted to accept the original bounty because it was a lot of work for say maybe not enough money.

Money is not the issue. The main problem is that the effort is rather pointless. MUI4 is a closed environment moving target for a close to nonexisting plattform. Why bother with it? In my view, AROS and Zune should ignore whatever goes on in MUI4 and MorphOS and rather dictate its own future on its own merits, this so called "catch up" game doesnt help anyone. The sooner AROS breaks away from MorphOS and AmigaOS4, the better.

[takemehomegrandma]

Money is not the issue. The main problem is that the effort is rather pointless. MUI4 is a closed environment moving target for a close to nonexisting plattform. Why bother with it? In my view, AROS and Zune should ignore whatever goes on in MUI4 and MorphOS and rather dictate its own future on its own merits, this so called "catch up" game doesnt help anyone. The sooner AROS breaks away from MorphOS and AmigaOS4, the better.

1. Not having a proper MUI re-implementation would affect Amiga compatibility in a very negative way (as it already does), making it more difficult to develop- or port applications for all 4 platforms, instead of easier (which seems to be the spirit of this bounty). MUI is the common denominator.

2. Since time and effort has to be spent on development *anyways*, why not spend it towards making it easier to port Amiga, MorphOS and OS4 applications to AROS (which, again, seems to be the spirit of this bounty), instead of creating a GUI that's something obscure and incompatible to Amiga, available only to the dozen of AROS devs and handful of users?

[vidarh]

Money is not the issue. The main problem is that the effort is rather pointless. MUI4 is a closed environment moving target for a close to nonexisting plattform. Why bother with it? In my view, AROS and Zune should ignore whatever goes on in MUI4 and MorphOS and rather dictate its own future on its own merits, this so called "catch up" game doesnt help anyone. The sooner AROS breaks away from MorphOS and AmigaOS4, the better.

While I do agree that AROS would benefit in the long run from going it's own way with Zune, I don't agree it's time yet. Catch up first. Then port, so it's available "everywhere", making it a much more desirable target. Only if/when Zune is there is it really worth talking about extending it and try to make Zune more desirable than the original MUI.

[takemehomegrandma]

While I do agree that AROS would benefit in the long run from going it's own way with Zune, I don't agree it's time yet. Catch up first. Then port, so it's available "everywhere", making it a much more desirable target. Only if/when Zune is there is it really worth talking about extending it and try to make Zune more desirable than the original MUI.

OMG, not another pointless branch-out just for the sake of it! Haven't we had enough of those...? Is this the true long-term goal of the bounty project? Would be *very* interesting to know that now, because it suddenly feels a lot more pointless and futile...

[OlafS3]

+1

My vision would be to have a kind of framework (set of libraries) that exist on all platforms and make it easy to port applications and games (parallel to existing libraries), so everyone can decide if he only wants to program for one platform or all. Then you could also have bounties for common applications like web browsers and the divide would not do any harm. I think starting with Zune and 3.8 compatiblity is a good begin, but zune could and should evolve further. And words like "dictating" are not helpful because this word only create resistance. I would call it an "additional offer".

[takemehomegrandma]

I think starting with Zune and 3.8 compatiblity is a good begin, but zune could and should evolve further.

You know what has evolved further than MUI3.8? MUI4! Of which some of its functionality is now being brought to OS4 by third party developers on the OS4 platform, for the purpose of making it easier to port/write cross-platform applications. Does that ambition sound familiar...?

[vidarh]

OMG, not another pointless branch-out just for the sake of it! Haven't we had enough of those...? Is this the true long-term goal of the bounty project? Would be *very* interesting to know that now, because it suddenly feels a lot more pointless and futile...

Who is talking about a "pointless branch-out"? Zune first needs to reach parity. But once Zune reaches parity, a decision needs to be taken: Let MUI dictate the pace, or move forward even if it means adding functionality that's not already there in MUI.

If MUI keeps moving forward at a good pace and delivers what is needed, then great. If not, letting Zune stagnate out of fear of future incompatibilities would be bad. In that case it would certainly not be pointless. I don't think anyone wants Zune to add new incompatible functionality for no good reason.

In any case, that is far down the road. First we need MUI3.8 compatibility and then MUI4 compatibility, which will both be beneficial regardless of where Zune goes next.

But this is another reason why ports of Zune to MOS and AmigaOS are important. If/when Zune reaches that point, *if* the decision is made to evolve Zune without waiting for MUI, then 1) people can opt to use Zune on all the platforms if they wish and/or 2) further enhancements to Zune can be more easily re-used on the other OS's if they would like to copy the improvements.

[jj]

So what you are describing is re-inventing the wheel again , and branching out past MUI4.
 
Shouldn't MUI set the pace its been the dipso facto standatrd on amigalike OSs for quite some time now.
 
Is this a jelaousy thing, because MorphOS has MUI4 and everybody else stuck in the past?
 
Is there some agreement between MorphOS and MUI dev that MUI4 can not be used on AOS4 or AROS?