Zune for all platforms

[HenryCase]

@Daedalus
Thank you for understanding.

@itix
Firstly, I'm glad you support improving Zune in principal.

Actually no need to because MUI/Zune classes wont appear in BOOPSI class list.

I'm not sure you understand what I was getting at. The goal is to make it easy to develop Zune programs that run on all Amiga systems. This includes using source code that makes reference to MUI methods and attributes in source code. If you have to change the name of each method and attribute, this could be a lot of work. Fortunately, this is not what you need to do, you only have to alter the class name slightly, and then everything else falls into place. I hope my point is clearer now.

The problem is you have to recompile programs to use Zune this way.

I don't see that as much of a problem, you'd probably have to rework other code to port it to another Amiga system anyway, but the change from MUI to Zune will be very minimal (would probably take under 10 minutes to just alter some class names for any Amiga program). Plus, as long as Zune takes off as a cross-platform GUI solution, this only needs to be a one time code alteration.

[SamuraiCrow]

I don't think the aim was ever to replace MUI4 on MorphOS, and I really don't think it's anywhere near as big a deal as some of the arguments are making out. With a Zune compatibility layer on MorphOS and OS4, it makes it very easy for a developer to write an app for all three platforms. MorphOS itself and all the existing and future MOS-only apps can still use MUI4 for what they need, muimaster.library and what not, and any apps compiled with Zune header files can use the similar-but-different z_muimaster.library. It doesn't interfere with the system at all, but offers an extremely easy route for porting apps between all systems. What's not to like there? Or do some people have a fear of not having a "pure" system or something?

Personally, I think that the Zune compatibility layer should just be a hosted version of AROS for PPC AmigaOS and PPC MorphOS.  Then you could run the same binaries on each system without worry.

[Kronos]

With a Zune compatibility layer on MorphOS and OS4,

By the definition of Zune (read MUI-replacement) at any point where such a compability layer would be needed it should be considered a bug in Zune.......

[HenryCase]

Personally, I think that the Zune compatibility layer should just be a hosted version of AROS for PPC AmigaOS and PPC MorphOS.  Then you could run the same binaries on each system without worry.

The downside being a performance hit.

By the definition of Zune (read MUI-replacement) at any point where such a compability layer would be needed it should be considered a bug in Zune.......

Please entertain redefining Zune as cross-platform GUI toolkit. Then you'll see your talk of bugs in Zune is totally missing the point.

[Kronos]

Please entertain redefining Zune as cross-platform GUI toolkit.

I can entertain redefining my right ear as my left leg.... probraly very entertaining but won't get me very far ....

Zune is what it is and IF it wants to become a cross-platform GUI toolkit of it's own merit it would need to drop mimiking MUI (read zunemaster.libtrary ZUNEM_ and ZUNEA instead of MUI this and that).


Problem is there would be 0.0 Zune SW at that moment.....

Mind setting up ZUNE-MUI and ZUNE-ZUNE in parallel under AROS and developing ZUNE-ZUNE further independently from MUI might make sense and in this scenario porting ZUNE-ZUNE to MorphOS would atleast not be completly pointless.



Edit:
In a way you are proposing Wine as a cross-platform-API for *nix and Win and are then demanding that Windows should be adapted to quirks&shortcomings of Wine......

[XDelusion]

I hope you all the best of luck!

And yes, I agree, MUI 4 has been good to me!

[itix]

I'm not sure you understand what I was getting at. The goal is to make it easy to develop Zune programs that run on all Amiga systems. This includes using source code that makes reference to MUI methods and attributes in source code. If you have to change the name of each method and attribute, this could be a lot of work. Fortunately, this is not what you need to do, you only have to alter the class name slightly, and then everything else falls into place. I hope my point is clearer now.

Yes I got it now. You didnt mean MUI compatible Zune but introduce Zune as new de facto GUI toolkit for all Amigas? MUI compatibility would not be necessarily addressed.

I can understand benefits but if you wish to introduce new GUI toolkit you have to make OS3 (WinUAE) users to adopt it. Failing to do so it will be just yet another GUI toolkit.

[takemehomegrandma]

It's not very interesting before it's 3.8 compatible, that's true. But when it is, having a port makes a very big difference:

Anyone wishing to target MOS, AROS and AmigaOS at the same time will need their software to work with Zune to have it work on AROS.

No, when Zune reaches MUI3.8 level, anyone wishing to target MorphOS, 68k Amiga OS, AROS and OS4 should have their software work with MUI3.8!

If by then any MUI3.8 applications doesn't compile for/run on Zune, then Zune is broken or lacking stuff, as simple as that. It's the MUI API that needs to be intact, regardless the underlying software (be it Zune or anything else).

This confusion of API's and underlying software sounds very familiar to the "oh, but MorphOS is not Amiga because it doesn't have the Amiga sources" nonsense, completely disregarding the fact that the very same Amiga API is completely re-implemented by using *other* sources, and it works just fine!

Not only would it be impossible (or have to be done in a very weird way, as already explained by others) to run Zune in parallel with MUI4 on MorphOS, or "MUI3.9 + some 3rd party MUI4 additions" on OS4 for that matter, it would also be *totally redundant*, since all MorphOS developers, and OS4 developers too, can *already* target their software for the  MUI3.8 API if they really want to. No need to squeeze in some Zune SW with a hammer and a shoehorn, that provides a fraction of the functionality compared to what's natively available, and in a worse way. Crazy!

If Zune is available on all three platforms, then they get a choice: They can target Zune on all of them, as the lowest common denominator, without worrying about incompatibilities, or they can target three different libraries with varying capabilities.

In that case, it will be MUI3.8 that will be the common denominator. Zune is merely a re-implementation of MUI. In practice, this will mean MUI on MorphOS and Zune on AROS, both using the same API (if Zune is done right). Why is this so difficult to understand?

[takemehomegrandma]

Au contraire, mon frere, it is you that has missed my point. As I said before, I don't care if MorphOS gets Zune or not, as long as the goal of improved cross-compatibility is reached.

Then fulfill Zune's purpose, and make it a true MUI API re-implementation on AROS! For a start, the MUI 3.8 API would be something to aim for...

[takemehomegrandma]

By the definition of Zune (read MUI-replacement) at any point where such a compability layer would be needed it should be considered a bug in Zune.......

Please entertain redefining Zune as cross-platform GUI toolkit. Then you'll see your talk of bugs in Zune is totally missing the point.

Are you suggesting *a brand new* GUI toolkit, reminding of some very old MUI API but incompatible to MUI to various degrees, and *ahelluvalot less capable*? And you think this would be better than giving Zune true MUI compatibility?

Wow.

Well, go ahead and do it, relese your "Zune" for MorphOS and OS4, see how many will use it, and learn the true meaning of "redundant" the hard way...

[HenryCase]

Problem is there would be 0.0 Zune SW at that moment.....

You will be able to use a lot of MUI code with Zune when it's fully MUI3.8 compatible, which opens it up to quite a lot of Amiga software, in addition to the programs that already exist on AROS.

Edit:
In a way you are proposing Wine as a cross-platform-API for *nix and Win and are then demanding that Windows should be adapted to quirks&shortcomings of Wine......

I never demanded any changes to MUI, so your point is invalid.

Then fulfill Zune's purpose, and make it a true MUI API re-implementation on AROS! For a start, the MUI 3.8 API would be something to aim for...

This is exactly what this thread is about! Read the bounty description for yourself:
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/61

Yes I got it now. You didnt mean MUI compatible Zune but introduce Zune as new de facto GUI toolkit for all Amigas? MUI compatibility would not be necessarily addressed.

Well, yes and no. You've understood part of the plan, but missed the other part. Simply put, there are two goals that the latest Zune bounties hope to kickstart:

1. Be as compatible as possible with MUI (preferably the latest and greatest version).
2. Be a cross-platform toolkit, running on all Amiga platforms.

The close compatibility to MUI is going to be a benefit for Zune for many reasons. Firstly, you can make use of existing source code. Secondly, coders familiar with MUI don't have to acquire new skills to use Zune. Thirdly, it helps build bridges between Amiga platforms.

Please note that these bridges will be built even if Zune stays on AROS only.

However, to make the life of coders even easier, we also have the second goal, which is to bring Zune to other platforms. Not as the default option for that platform, but as a choice. The only benefit at first will be allowing coders to target one GUI toolkit for all Amiga platforms, to make their lives easier and to thereby increase the software quantity and quality on Amiga platforms.

Now with all this talk about how we're going to do this that and the other, we've gotten away from the key topic in this thread, which is a bounty to improve Zune. I hope you will agree with me that taking Zune to the level of MUI3.8, and then subsequently MUI4, will help MorphOS even if Zune is not ported to MorphOS. This is because it will help make porting programs between these two Amiga platforms easier. Ports of Zune to OS4 and OS3 will only improve things further.

So you see, focusing this discussion about Zune on MorphOS is missing the bigger picture, which is improving Zune = good times for all. Capiche?

@all
Now that this thread is back on track, can we start talking about this bounty please?
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/61

Been good to see it grow over the past couple of days, got to $515 already. If we could get the remaining $430 from the old bounty we'd be looking at close to $1000 for Zune Fix Phase 1, which I'd say would be a good incentive for a developer to pick it up. Does anyone know who the remaining Zune Enhancement bounty donators are?
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/54

Thanks in advance for your help.

[HenryCase]

Then fulfill Zune's purpose, and make it a true MUI API re-implementation on AROS! For a start, the MUI 3.8 API would be something to aim for...

Are you slow? This is exactly what this thread is about! Read the bounty description for yourself:
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/61

[takemehomegrandma]

You will be able to use a lot of MUI code with Zune when it's fully MUI3.8 compatible

You should be able to use *all* MUI3.8 code when Zune is fully MUI3.8 capable, right?

This is exactly what this thread is about! Read the bounty description for yourself:
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/61

Yes I get that much, MUI3.8 re-implementation. But what I don't quite understand is why Zune should be ported to Amiga OS, MorphOS and OS4, when all these platforms *already have* MUI3.8? AROS is the only one lacking this, and this is what Zune aims to fix, right? Then the MUI3.8 API will be everywhere, right? So why port Zune anywhere?

Edit: OK, after thinking about this one more time, I now realize that it must be as a way of improving 68k MUI on Amiga OS 68k by simply replacing it, as development goes on further and tries to catching up with MUI4, right?

[HenryCase]

You should be able to use *all* MUI3.8 code when Zune is fully MUI3.8 capable, right?

Yep. Apologies for understating. ;-)

Yes I get that much, MUI3.8 re-implementation. But what I don't quite understand is why Zune should be ported to Amiga OS, MorphOS and OS4, when all these platforms *already have* MUI3.8? AROS is the only one lacking this, and this is what Zune aims to fix, right? Then the MUI3.8 API will be everywhere, right? So why port Zune anywhere?

Do they though, do they all have access to MUI3.8? As far as I understood, MorphOS has MUI4, OS4 has MUI3.9. It's only OS3 that has MUI3.8. Whilst it might seem like I'm being pedantic, the point is that these different versions of MUI are not fully compatible with each other. These incompatibilities leads to extra work for developers.

If MUI4 was open-source, we wouldn't be needing to have this conversation. As it stands, improving Zune is the best bet to being able to offer a toolkit that all Amiga developers can target if they want to port to all Amiga platforms. Note that I don't care if Zune is ported to MorphOS, as long as MUI and Zune work identically to each other then it doesn't matter what the toolkit being used is called. I'm not attached to the name of the toolkit, I'm attached to the idea that developers can target all Amiga platforms easily.

Edit: OK, after thinking about this one more time, I now realize that it must be as a way of improving 68k MUI on Amiga OS 68k by simply replacing it, as development goes on further and tries to catching up with MUI4, right?

That is one benefit of this work on Zune, yes. Not the only benefit, but something worth mentioning certainly. Thanks for taking the time to consider the possibilities that this work on Zune could bring.

[takemehomegrandma]

Do they though, do they all have access to MUI3.8? As far as I understood, MorphOS has MUI4, OS4 has MUI3.9. It's only OS3 that has MUI3.8. Whilst it might seem like I'm being pedantic, the point is that these different versions of MUI are not fully compatible with each other.

Backwards compatibility to MUI3.8 API, as the lowest common denominator?

[Rebel-CD32]

takemehomegrandma, can you please tell us which MUI applications you have coded or are developing?