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Author Topic: Minimig AGA 060 RTG  (Read 58461 times)

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Offline _ThEcRoW

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Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2011, 02:36:19 PM »
I want a replay board!!!!!. can't wait!!!
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Offline yaqubeTopic starter

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Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2011, 03:35:02 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;651723
Cloning one of the cards that there is already a P96 driver for is pretty trivial. The simplest cards are just framebuffers with very few registers. The emulation doesn't need to be very accurate, just good enough for P96 to work.


It's much easier to write a simple P96 driver than clone an existing SVGA chipset (the FPGAs are limited in many ways). This way you can optimize software for the hardware.
 

Offline billt

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Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2011, 04:35:44 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;651723
Not really. Cloning one of the cards that there is already a P96 driver for is pretty trivial. The simplest cards are just framebuffers with very few registers. The emulation doesn't need to be very accurate, just good enough for P96 to work.


If all you have is a dumb framebuffer, there's not much point in a P96 driver. P96 drivers accelerate things by using graphics chip hardware to draw lines and other shapes, picture-in-picture stuff, etc. A dumb framebuffer doesn't have such things. I don't get this.

Cloning a chip with features that are worth cloning, such as a Voodoo3 or eventhe old PicassoIV or whatever chips, that's going to be an enormous amount of work. You can find out the register API, what register addresses do what, what bits do what, but then you have to design the chip to do exactly that. Chip design is a lot of work. Yaqube is already doing exactly that sort of work in cloning AGA (and thus knows what you're asking of him) and perhaps improving on it. Let's not ask him to do this large effort twice.
 
Quote
Extending AGA to the point where P96 makes sense (16/24/32 bit modes) etc is going to be more complicated to shoehorn it into the design plus you can't even see it until you have written the software.


It's nearly exactly the same problem as cloning a Cirrus Logic 5446. How do you shoehorn that into the Minimig design any easier than an enhanced AGA? Do you convert the 5446 clone into the 680x0 bus that connects everything in Minimig now? (and thus have to redesign how some things in the 5446 work because it was designed for PCI) Do you make it PCI as the original was and then add a bridge between them?

A p96 driver isn't that big of a deal to make. I've been involved with that before. By day I am a chip designer. I don't do graphics chips, I work on microcontrollers, but I have some sort of idea of what you would have to go through to clone something. Trust me, making a new P96 driver is SIGNIFICANTLY LESS EFFORT than cloning a second graphics chip for the reason of avoiding a P96 driver for AGA, testing, debugging, etc. He's got to do all of that for AGA already, but for the purpose of an Amiga clone, that part makes sense. If you want a 5446 or some other non-AGA chip, wedge in a PCI slot or something to the design and plug it in there.

And AGA is already more advanced than your simple framebuffer proposal. It can draw shapes and move memory around. The main reason not to have made an AGA P96 driver ages ago was that the bus bottlenecks got in the way too much, performance was a problem there. Yaqube has an opportunity here to improve on those bottlenecks and get AGA performing better, so that P96 driver is worth making for it.

Let's encourage Yaqube to make AGA perform as well as or maybe even better than the PCI chips of old.
Bill T
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Offline psxphill

Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2011, 11:36:51 PM »
Quote from: billt;651761
Do you convert the 5446 clone into the 680x0 bus that connects everything in Minimig now? (and thus have to redesign how some things in the 5446 work because it was designed for PCI) Do you make it PCI as the original was and then add a bridge between them?

You'd only need to make it work the same as the original graphics card, so it would be a zorro device.
 
I guess if you could use the AAA register layout then it would be cool, I like old hardware and adding new registers just seems wrong.
 

Offline billt

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Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2011, 12:25:55 AM »
I think a P96 driver for Minimig-AGA makes sense for us users, and here's why. Minimig-AGA gives us AGA, so we can run AGA software. A P96 driver for AGA lets us also run P96 (and most CGX too I guess) software that doesn't have an AGA/ECS equivalent. And it does that with far less effort than adding in a second graphics core that is compatible with an existing P96 driver.

I was originally excited in this thread to find out how Yaqube accomplished P96 compatibility. Since then, it's become apparent that his path really is the most efficient one to get us there. Efficient in usage of his time, and efficient in usage of FPGA resources.

Quote from: psxphill;651821
You'd only need to make it work the same as the original graphics card, so it would be a zorro device.
No, it was a PCI graphics chip with a PCI->Zorro bridge in between. A PCI chip has a PCI register map.  I guess in theory you could leave out PCI and also leave out Zorro and attach such a reinvented graphics core direct to the native 680x0 Minimig bus, but it's still a lot of work, even if you didn't have to reverse it to start. Since we're inside an FPGA now, there's no PCI or Zorro forced upon us, but it's still a ton of work any which way.

Now, I am not against Zorro or PCI. I have a slower than glaciers progress project to do a Zorro bridge myself. But my only goal is Zorro<->Wishbone. I suppose a Minimig<->Wishbone bridge would be required for Minimig, but AoOCS already has Wishbone, so I can start playing there and then see if someone ended up making Wishbone for Minimig by then. I've taken to thinking that desigining a couple bus bridges would be a good way for me to learn Verilog. (Or VHDL if we're taken there, as I think MikeJ has suggested may happen, or will we end up with both Verilog and VHDL ports tracking each other?)

Quote
I guess if you could use the AAA register layout then it would be cool, I like old hardware and adding new registers just seems wrong.
Who needs to add new registers? We can do things to improve AGA compared to Commodore's motherboard/chip design without changing registers. Make the bus faster clock. Maybe make the bus wider. Faster memory access. Things that can make Minimig's AGA implementation perform well enough for P96 driver to now be practical for the first time. We're not talking incompatible, we're talking fast enough to be worth doing a P96 driver. And Making an AGA clone that performs well is something that makes sense as a big goal for Minimig-AGA.

Now, if we can go beyond AGA (Natami anyone?) without breaking software, then why not? Add some true 24bit modes, and new registers or new bits previously undefined in old registers to support that. Add alpha blending. Add chunky modes. Add YUV and other color modes if you like. It doesn't have to break old stuff, and if you put your fingers over the new changes to the updated register map, you won't know the difference. If you want to get real crazy, add some hardware OpenGL.

And if someone wants to have fun putting an alien graphics chip in there too, that is OK to play around with. But for motivation of wanting to do that. Motivation to avoid writing a P96 driver is an odd one that I don't think makes sense. but do it for fun, for education, to show off, whatever. You're probably going to have to write a P96 driver anyway. (I think it would be fun to play with opengraphics and other free graphics cores, but I'd start on AmigaOnes and true Classics that have real PCI and real Zorro slots, rather than try to add PCI and Zorro into Minimig first. PCI, Zorro, and those other additional gfx cores will all take up space, and I don't have a huge FPGA chip)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 12:29:16 AM by billt »
Bill T
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Offline espskog

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Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2011, 09:27:12 AM »
Quote from: yaqube;648940
1280x1024


@YAQUBE:
Can you also put 16:9 modes into the list of possible resolutions. I think Mike once mentioned that 1680x1050 should be possible. It would be cool to have WB run on a native (and today very cheap) 1680x1050 monitor as 4:3 1280x1024 monitors today are a bit harder to get hold of.

Espen
 

Offline utri007

Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2011, 06:12:30 PM »
Would it be possible to use miminmig's P96 driver with normal a1200?

It would be slow, but I could have use of it
ACube Sam 440ep Flex 800mhz, 1gb ram and 240gb hd and OS4.1FE
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Offline yaqubeTopic starter

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Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2011, 06:35:59 PM »
Quote from: espskog;651857
@YAQUBE:
Can you also put 16:9 modes into the list of possible resolutions. I think Mike once mentioned that 1680x1050 should be possible. It would be cool to have WB run on a native (and today very cheap) 1680x1050 monitor as 4:3 1280x1024 monitors today are a bit harder to get hold of.


The resolutions of the Minimig RTG card are programmable. You can define your own 16:9 modes with standard Picasso96Mode setting program. Initially (due to pixel clocks limitations) you will be able to define 1680x1050 resolution with refresh rate of 50 Hz. The support for 60 Hz refresh rate will come later.
 

Offline yaqubeTopic starter

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Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2011, 06:39:12 PM »
Quote from: utri007;651910
Would it be possible to use miminmig's P96 driver with normal a1200?


Yes, but only if you can find an Amiga 1200 with an RTG card compatible with the Minimig's one.
 

Offline utri007

Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2011, 06:41:14 PM »
I belive that mimnimig RTG is AGA, just faster
ACube Sam 440ep Flex 800mhz, 1gb ram and 240gb hd and OS4.1FE
A1200 Micronic tower, OS3.9, Apollo 060 66mhz, xPert Merlin, Delfina Lite and Micronic Scandy, 500Gb hd, 66mb ram, DVD-burner and WLAN.
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Offline yaqubeTopic starter

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Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2011, 07:05:05 PM »
Quote from: utri007;651915
I belive that mimnimig RTG is AGA, just faster


The Minimig RTG card (embedded in the same FPGA as the main core) is independent from its AGA display engine. Although the Chip RAM is used as the display memory (there is 50 MB of it) it's much faster than the one found in real AGA machines.
 

Offline utri007

Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2011, 07:23:23 PM »
Why not make RTG driver for AGA?? It works with PPC amigas, sure it would work with minimig aga
ACube Sam 440ep Flex 800mhz, 1gb ram and 240gb hd and OS4.1FE
A1200 Micronic tower, OS3.9, Apollo 060 66mhz, xPert Merlin, Delfina Lite and Micronic Scandy, 500Gb hd, 66mb ram, DVD-burner and WLAN.
A1200 desktop, OS3.9, Blizzard 060 66mhz, 66mb ram, Ide Fix Express with 160Gb HD and WLAN
A500 OS2.1, GVP+HD8 with 4mb ram, 1mb chip ram and 4gb HD
Commodore CDTV KS3.1, 1mb chip, 4mb fast ram and IDE HD
 

Offline haywirepc

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Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2011, 07:35:20 PM »
I'd really like to get one of these boards and jam it in an amiga 500 case and use an amiga 500 keyboard too.
 

Offline billt

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Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2011, 07:43:20 PM »
Quote from: yaqube;651918
The Minimig RTG card (embedded in the same FPGA as the main core) is independent from its AGA display engine. Although the Chip RAM is used as the display memory (there is 50 MB of it) it's much faster than the one found in real AGA machines.

I've misunderstood things then. I appologize to the guy I've been debating with about the sense of a second gfx engine beside AGA in there vs AGA-native P96 driver.

When can we learn more about this thing? Is it something you made yourself, or an open core you found somewhere?
Bill T
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Offline yaqubeTopic starter

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Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2011, 08:12:11 PM »
Quote from: billt;651925
When can we learn more about this thing?

Right now it's not a high priority. I tried to make use of the extra DDR memory bandwidth and I was surprised how easy it was to implement a simple frame buffer and write a driver for it.

Quote
Is it something you made yourself, or an open core you found somewhere?

As I said before it's a simple frame buffer but in the future it will be expanded by a dedicated blitter engine. Everything has been made by me.
 

Offline Heiroglyph

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Re: Minimig AGA 060 RTG
« Reply #59 from previous page: July 27, 2011, 08:30:54 PM »
Quote from: yaqube;651927
As I said before it's a simple frame buffer but in the future it will be expanded by a dedicated blitter engine. Everything has been made by me.


It may be a simple framebuffer, but I suspect that with the increased bandwidth it's far from slow compared to older hardware.

Awesome work BTW, I can't wait to get one.  Money is in hand, I just can't seem to get anyone to take it ;)